ChefRob
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OG Fertilizer Advice for Indoor Tomatoes & Chiles

Hello!

I am a new indoor gardener who needs some organic fertilizer advice for Cherry Tomatoes and Chiles. I have always used store bought inorganic fertilizers for my outdoor plants, but I want to try the organic route for a change. I'm not interested in using compost indoors mainly for convenience purposes.

I currently have the following products leftover in my inventory:

Espoma Bone Meal (4-12-0)
Miracle Gro Bloom Booster Fertilizer (15-30-15) [do not think I will use indoors]
Epsom salts
CNS 17 Liquid Fertilizer (1-5-4) [not organic, came with my grow light]
Neptune's Harvest Fish Fertilizer (2-4-1)


I'm looking for a couple organic, liquid fertilizers to supplement N-P-K, lime, calcium, magnesium, etc. Does anyone have any suggestions of what to purchase for my needs? Also, what are your thoughts on using high nitrogen fertilizers as opposed to high phosphorous fertilizers at different stages?
Last edited by ChefRob on Thu Sep 17, 2009 3:43 pm, edited 17 times in total.

ChefRob
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Any thoughts?
Last edited by ChefRob on Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

a0c8c
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The only time I'd use something high in nitrogen is for seedlings that will be transplanted to a larger pot. Otherwise, even after you stop feeding it fertilizers high in nitrogen, the soil will already be high in nitrogen and be counter productive. I stopped using fertilizers a month ago, and the plants that last got it are still favoring leaves due to the amount of nitrogen still stuck in the soil. It takes alot of watering, probably over watering, to rinse out all the nitrogen.

It's alright to start out with some good nitrogen for the plants, but once they're established I would keep feeding it high nitrogen foods. That's why I like compost, it's a balanced source of food. The plants will take what they need, aka nitrogen first, then phosors when it's ready too bloom

ChefRob
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a0c8c wrote:The only time I'd use something high in nitrogen is for seedlings that will be transplanted to a larger pot. Otherwise, even after you stop feeding it fertilizers high in nitrogen, the soil will already be high in nitrogen and be counter productive. I stopped using fertilizers a month ago, and the plants that last got it are still favoring leaves due to the amount of nitrogen still stuck in the soil. It takes alot of watering, probably over watering, to rinse out all the nitrogen.

It's alright to start out with some good nitrogen for the plants, but once they're established I would keep feeding it high nitrogen foods. That's why I like compost, it's a balanced source of food. The plants will take what they need, aka nitrogen first, then phosors when it's ready too bloom
I would make and use a very natural compost if I was planting outdoors but I'm worried about odor. I'm also looking for a more controlled N-P-K ratio than a balanced compost can deliver. I want to optimize nutrient intake for different stages and not leave it up to the plant to decide.

You mentioned that once they're established, you would keep feeding it high nitrogen foods; did you mean you wouldn't? And when, in your opinion, does the plant become established?

What would your feeding regimen be for these plants if you didn't use compost?

Thank you for your reply!
Last edited by ChefRob on Thu Sep 17, 2009 3:46 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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stella1751
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ChefRob, I wonder whether your dearth of responses is because this is in the wrong forum. Maybe you could try re-posting it under Vegetable Gardening. Many of us in this forum don't know how to use synthetic fertilizers :oops:

ChefRob
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stella1751 wrote:ChefRob, I wonder whether your dearth of responses is because this is in the wrong forum. Maybe you could try re-posting it under Vegetable Gardening. Many of us in this forum don't know how to use synthetic fertilizers :oops:
Thank you. I actually posted in both, but the administrators didn't let me have the same post in two seperate forums. Anyway, I'm inquiring about organic fertilizers so that is why I thought someone here might know.
Last edited by ChefRob on Thu Sep 17, 2009 3:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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applestar
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I recommend you refer to [url=https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=18026&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15&sid=42315c8cfdb7f110712764cf8cb2dcd2]this thread[/url] in which
The Helpful Gardener wrote:... you are NOT growing organic, so you are NOT getting those results. Just adding cow poop does little because you are killing off the best part of it with the ferts. The only biology that DOES benefit from chems is bacterial, which are nitrogen intensive!

Any chemical fertilization retards the process of better soil. Soil is succesional; first bare rock then lichens then moss them weeds then grass, on up to climax forest, right? Every plant has a specific set of parameters it does best in, tailored to the specific chemistries of that stage of soil, decided (in organics and nature) by the biology of the soil. Acidity decides how much trace and mineral element gets etched from the minerals part of the soil, and pH is decided by the fungal to bacterial ratio of our soil. When you kill the fungus and bacteria, no more etching, so no new nutrients from the rocks; in fact we have now created a soil that will lock up nutrients, which is why chemical fertilizers use such obscene amounts of nitrogen, potassium and phosphorus. They HAVE to.
I would start with potting mix containing good organic compost. I usually mix my own out of 1:1:1 compost : good leaf mold/composted wood pile/soil : sand, amended with Green Sand, Rock Phosphate, and Dolomitic Lime/Ground Oystershells, perhaps some Alfalfa pellets/meal if I felt more nitrogen was needed but not usually for tomatoes and peppers. For them, I do add a tiny amount of Epsom Salt. After that, Neptune's Harvest Hydrolized Fish Fertilizer (2-4-1) has been highly recommended by HG on numerous occasions, but I usually grow my container vegetables outdoors during the growing season and fertilize with soil drench and foliar applications of homemade [url=https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17097&highlight=]ACT[/url]. :cool:

You might want to read [url=https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11147&highlight=]this thread[/url] in which I concluded that soil mix sterilization is not really necessary even for indoor containers... and that I put at least one earthworm in each container, indoor or out. But I see you DID read that thread. I don't use Perlite primarily because of the choking dust but also because Perlite granules eventually work their way up to the surface of the soil. I prefer sand (and small gravel in larger containers) because they help to weigh down the containers and keep them from falling over from the weight of the plant. :roll:

By the way, good finished organic compost is NOT "smelly" in my experience. Far from it. :wink: Well managed compost pile isn't "smelly" either. :lol: Come to think of it, I think HG mentioned that Hydrolyzed Fish IS stinky. I used to use liquid kelp (though that's a different kind of fertilizer) and liked that the smell of it reminded me of the shore....

ETA: I looked up CNS 17 Liquid Fertilizer (1-5-4) -- RIPE. Aside from it being a chemical fertilizer, it appears to be marketed for Hydroponic gardening.... But it's made by [url=https://www.botanical.com/hydro/nutrients/botanicare.html]Botanicare[/url], and Top_Dollar_Bread recommended their Liquid Karma (.1-.1-.5) -- Completely Organic Bio-catalyst Plant Stimulant -- in the ACT thread linked above.

ChefRob
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Thank you applestar, but I'm still not going to use compost indoors even if its just old leaves and wood chips, mainly because I can't make it at my current high-rise location. I don't want to buy an indoor compost tumbler because I have no room for it. And I really don't care for buying several different components to amend soil for a 4x3 ft. indoor growing area. I already have good potting mixes that include forest products and organic compost.

Sand can be quite harmful in soil for most plants; Mediterranean herbs like it, but I remember reading several sources which highly advise against it. Perlite is annoying in that it rises to the surface, but in my opinion it does its job better than sand. In addition to sand weighing down your containers, it can become quite compact, settle at the bottom and block up drainage.

Hydrolyzed fish fertilizer is not stinky at all; that's what Neptune's Harvest is and I have already smelled it and concurred. Hydrolyzed fish fertilizer is the best form of fish fertilizer made from enzymatic digestion and cold compression. Hydrolyzed fish retains more of the proteins, enzymes, vitamins and micronutrients than emulsions, which can be processed with high heat and acids. Heat tends to denature amino acids in proteins, making them unavailable to the plants. Enzymatic digestion of fish allows the minerals and amino acids to become readily available to plants and makes those nutrients water soluble, so you can use them in foliar spraying or through drip and other irrigation systems. Most fish fertilizers are 100% organic.

Thank you for the info about CNS 17. I am not using it. It came with my grow light, which is used mainly for hydroponics and aquariums so that makes sense.
Last edited by ChefRob on Thu Sep 17, 2009 3:52 pm, edited 7 times in total.

top_dollar_bread
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theres a difference between smelly organic matter and compost, please do not confuse "organic matter left in a heap for a length of time" with compost!

compost doesnt just feed your plant, it builds soil structure, adds beneficial micro organisms, who then slowly breaks down organic matter to feed your plants.
when soil is built with compost and added organic matter, nitrogen is should be available in the soil. If you think you need more, top mulch with compost, or organic matter mixed with a little blood meal (A LITTLE)

IMO throw out the miracle kill, your soil (especially potting soil) will thank you. The bone and Neptune should handle the N requirements.

build a soil like A_S mentioned and feed them Neptune for growth and the CNS for bloom. edit N O on the CNS, try looking for kelp but bone meal will help with flowering

ChefRob
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Thank you, top dollar. I appreciate your enthusiasm for homeade compost, but like I said, I'm looking for an alternative method. I used compost for my outdoor plants. I do not use Miracle Gro Potting Soil…I'm using their Organic Choice and Orchid Mix, both of which contain organic compost and forest products. I know they're not better than compost, but they'll do just fine for my indoor plants. Did you mean throw out the MG Bloom Booster?
Last edited by ChefRob on Thu Sep 17, 2009 3:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.

top_dollar_bread
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ChefRob wrote: Thank you, top dollar. I understand the differences…but I just finished reading several posts about making your own compost from a bunch of stinky sources so I had that fresh in my mind. I do not use Miracle Gro Potting Soil…I use their Organic Choice and their Orchid Mix, both which contain organic compost and forest products. Did you mean throw out the MG Bloom Booster? I appreciate your enthusiasm for homeade compost, but like I said, I'm looking for an alternative method.

As A_S mentioned, CNS 17 is not organic, meant for hydroponic systems and came free with my grow light. I will not be using it.
yes the MG bloom, but that my opinion :wink:
Organic choice isnt certified organic from my knowledge but I'm sure its better then ther other stuff. If you look around there are way better potting soils to choose from: black gold, sunshine mix, E.B. stones organic, kelloggs organic potting soil are a few to look for.
You can also buy OMRI certified compost or vermicompost for an alternative to doing it yourself. I grow lots of herbs and vegetables in containers and compost IS my method. Its in my potting soil, in my tea's, and used as a top feed for both indoor and out door container plants. Compost and a organic gardener well at least in my case are inseparable

ChefRob
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I'm not using the bloom booster - I just have it in my inventory. I might just use the fish fertilizer with some kelp extract and then switch to a seperate high phosphorous fertilizer later.

I'm not too hung up on 100% organic; mostly organic is good enough for me. I'll go crazy if I start worrying about whether the manure I use came from a cow that was fed a 100% grass diet, which was sowed from seed by a farmer that used organic fertilizer. (lol)

It's my understanding that most herbs, especially the Mediterranean varieties prefer sandy, rocky soil with lime. They don't perform as well in rich, moist, organic soil. This is obviously reversed for vegetables.
Last edited by ChefRob on Thu Sep 17, 2009 3:58 pm, edited 4 times in total.

top_dollar_bread
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ChefRob wrote: It's my understanding that most herbs, especially the Mediterranean varieties prefer sandy, rocky soil with lime. They don't perform as well in rich, moist, organic soil. This is obviously reversed for vegetables.
true, but it is in my experience that they grow just fine na they grow wonderfully with rich organic soil. moister isnt a problem unless the surface is moist, add some sand, perlite vermiculite to the top and walla

ChefRob
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Ok, good point! Well thank you for your help everyone!



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