Is a Copper Fungicide Organic?

[Cuke]

A local nursery carries a copper fungicide which would treat early blight for one of my tomato plants.The affected tomato plant does not have fruit yet,just a few blossoms.But is it organic?

[cynthia_h]

That's a definite "maybe." Here's a statement from OMRI (Organic Materials Research Institute) re. copper sulfate:

https://www.omri.org/OMRI_datatable.php?search=copper

Cynthia H.
Sunset Zone 17, USDA Zone 9

[Cuke]

Thanks for the link.I bought it before you posted but have not used it yet because of the rain.Hm,now I wish I waited a little.I need to check the label to see how much copper it actually contains,I don't want it to build up in my soil.Would my soil be fine if I used it occasionally?So far it is just one plant,not all 5 of them.

[cynthia_h]

Are there any application guidelines on the label? OMRI lists many copper products. Which one do you have?

Cynthia

[The Helpful Gardener]

Almost any metal can be a build-up issue, so I try not to rely on them for problems... that said I have copper in my arsenal if needed...

Early Blight is a splash-up disease (raindrops splash the pathogen up onto the plant); a good mulch will prevent a lot of it, and preventitive spraying with milk or fish is pretty effective for me (I alternate); not a sign yet and my still short plants have foliage nearly to the ground... but if it shows up, I will use copper to knock it backwards and then go back to my regular regimen... IMHO, overuse is an issue; restrained and intelligent use is not...

HG

[Cuke]

HG- I do have mulch down but one plant does have blight.That being said,I am careful about my application of sprays.So I will wait until it stops raining to use.But I won't overuse it,I'll keep my eye on that tom.And fish with milk?Would ground up fish skin or fish bones work?

Cynthia- I did find many application guidelines.It did not say how to apply but it did say what to be careful of.It said not apply to water and not to contaminate water because it is harmful to aquatic pets and organisms.It's name is Liquid Copper Fungicide Ready to Use and the corp is W. Neudorff.And less than 1% is copper soap or copper equivalents.It also says it's for organic productions on the bottle.I checked the link and bottle but my product is not OMRI listed.

[cynthia_h]

There is a "moderate" risk to aquatic life from this product. "Moderate" in this context is between "mild" and "serious." If you decide to use it, be sure that the runoff from the area of application cannot reach open waterways. Be aware of storm drains as well; those lead to open waterways.

I found toxicity information on this product at

https://www.pesticideinfo.org/List_Products.jsp?PestName=Black%20spot&offset=1842

(sorry for the long url...)

This site does not give listings of certification bodies' ratings of products. In other words, if this fungicide were OMRI-certified, this page would not give that information.

Perhaps you can work the other way around, for example, use the OMRI list of certified fungicides and see where you can acquire one?

Is that a possibility?

Cynthia H.

[Cuke]

I'll try to get a OMRI listed product.I doubt I'll get much luck considering the nursery I bought this at probably has the best selection in my city.I would purchase online,but past experiences have made me very nervous to do so.I'll call around though,because I don't want to harm myself or the environment.

Runoff shouldn't be a problem.The garden is in my backyard while storm drains are in the front yard and the closest storm drain is two houses over.

[The Helpful Gardener]

OMRI listing is expensive and a lot of little guys can't afford it. Still it is the benchmark all others are measured on. [url=https://www.tilth.org/]Oregon Tilth[/url] is another good certification organization...

As for the fish, I use [url=https://www.planetnatural.com/site/xdpy/kb/fish-fertilizer/]hydrolized fish[/url], a more stable and absorbable product. Fish emulsion is a waste product of menhaden or dogfish processing that cooks the oils out, filters the protein solids for animalfeed, and you get the waste stream really. Not as good as hydrolysate, which retains all the nutrition and returns it to the soil AND the plants very nicely... but just ground up fish? I can't recommend it, but would be worried about what it might attract...

Looks like Neudorff holds the patent but licenses to [url=https://www.bonideproducts.com/lbonide/msds/msds775.pdf]Bonide[/url] here... does it say Bonide anywhere on the packaging? Not too horrible but it is nasty for fish... (although I have used low levels of just this product as an aquarium cure for fungus on fish, so it is a matter of degrees, rather than just horrible at any quantity...). Smart, informed, and reasoned use is rarely dangerous, just spraying and praying is stupidity. Cuke is asking the right questions...

HG

[Cuke]

I looked under the price sticker HG,and it does say Bonide.LoL I should have checked there before.I'm glad its not too horrible then.I don't want to be polluting my soil without knowing.

I have a spray that is OMRI listed and it is also harmful to aquatic life.Is there any difference between the two?Like toxicity wise for ground water and such.

I read the benefits of the hydrolized fish,sounds great.I need to get another tomato cage so I'll definitely have to look for that stuff.True,I don't want to be attracting anymore critters to my yard than we already have.

[The Helpful Gardener]

Cuke I can't be sure but doubt there is little difference between those products, as it is the active ingredient that is the aquatic issue. Might all be churned out at the same factory and relabled depending on who is paying at that time for all we know... Somebody didn't pay for the OMRI testing, so no seal...

THIS is whay we need some other oversight other than a for profit laboratory. IMO, THAT is what tax dollars should be for... I want my 65% of Federal taxes that goes to defense to go to defending me from people trying to kill me with junk in my food and water... Heck with GM, let's buy OMRI! There's a company that we can actually use...

HG

[Cuke]

Well the spray is from Safer Brand while the copper fungicide is from Bonide.And I agree,we do need over site on this,we don't want to be drinking hazardous stuff or unintentionally polluting creatures through what we think is safe.Just bees alone contribute $15 billion in the food industry in the US.That's something we need to take care of.

[cynthia_h]

I agree. I just got a flyer in the mail the other day from The Great Sunflower Project, and on the bottom is their slogan:

"Bees: responsible for every third bite of food."

I think that individual action, by hundreds of thousands of individual gardeners, may be the only salvation for our food web--esp. the pollinators.

I'm with ya on that one, Cuke, no doubt!

Cynthia

(P.S. For more info, see https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13704 )

[Cuke]

Unfortunately for me,we never really had a bee population in my area.Several of my neighbors have flowers,but they just don't survive because of our random weather patterns.I'll be sure to plant a lot more attractive flowers next year.My impatiens don't seem to attract bees.

[urban farmer]

Cuke,

Just thought of something to add to your earlier post about products being harmful to aquatic life even those that are OMRI listed.
I am no chemist or even close to it, but I have read a lot about some of these ingredients and the half-life of them. Some break down quickly in sunlight, some in certain temperature ranges, etc. I am always wondering the same thing when I read that on an organic, or "safe" product, but after reading about the half-life of the compounds I feel better about some of them. In that they do not last long after application.
Still not 100% on that but at least the half-life of some of these things is not 100 years...guess that is a +.

Just wanted to add that in.

Matt

[Cuke]

Matt,that is helpful.I remember doing half-lives forever ago.But since you mentioned it,it does bring back memories.I do feel a little safer now.I'm sure copper takes a little longer breaking down,but it doesn't stay there forever.Thanks.

[The Helpful Gardener]

Metals are among the more long lived elements, and we need to be cautious about using them. It is conversations like this that will help keep focus on responsible and reasoned use...

HG

[Decado]

Unfortunately for me,we never really had a bee population in my area.Several of my neighbors have flowers,but they just don't survive because of our random weather patterns.I'll be sure to plant a lot more attractive flowers next year.My impatiens don't seem to attract bees.

You may want to try raspberries or oregano, the flowers of both are HUGE bee attractors, I never have bee problems because of them.

[The Helpful Gardener]

Decado, if you are not having bee problems, you likely have a beekeeper withing a few miles of your garden. I have lawn I seeded clover into, native plants in wild array, oregano AND rasperries, and I do not see many bees anymore. I DO see bumbles a bit still, and a lot of other pollinators that stand in for bees to a degree, some of whom look an awful lot like bees, but much as syrphids and wasps do some pollination, they are not the wunderkind that bees are in that role...

We are losing bees worldwide, an animal that some estimates say accounts for every third forkful of food on this planet. While folks in this country want to pretend the jury is still out, European studies point directly at pesticides, especially [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neonicotinoid]neonicitinoids[/url], as the culprit (varroa mites and viruses are certainly part of the picture here, but we have weakened our little buddies with our poisons, making them more susceptible to the other pathogens). This is a sore topic with a lot of organic folk, myself included. Planting material they like is a good start, but maintaining it without pesticides is far more important...

HG

[Decado]

I know the world is having bee problems HG, I was just under the impression that since my raspberries and oregano brought so many bees around that it helped boost the bee population in my area. There aren't any bee farms anywhere near my home, I guess it's possible that someone nearby might have a box or two worth of bees, but could that really cause this many bees to be around? Because I must have hundreds of bees around at any moment during the daytime.

[The Helpful Gardener]

If you have honeybees around it is the ONLY way; the wild honeybee is nearly extirpated in the U.S.



HG

[Decado]

Well they could be bumbles, I don't really know how to tell the difference, all I know is there are a lot of them.

[Diane]

I have both. But what I notice the most is the fuzzy bumblebees. There are plenty in my garden.
I noticed in early spring that some of these bees were sick. They would land on plants and just stay there. Some were slow moving. A few got caught in strange places and I had to help free them.
They are strong and healthy and here in large numbers all the time now.
I have blueberry bushes and two kind of large raspberry patches that are doing fine.
The bees love the most, pansies, the flowers on coleus and cilantro, then snapdragons, everlasting pea and all the other flowers.