aset
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Questions About Starting a Vegetable Garden

Hi all, I am looking for some advice if I can get it please. The extent of gardening that we've done in my family, is last year my husband planted some tomato plants outside and that was it. We managed to get a ton of delicious tomatoes, but really that was by chance... we have good black soil and it rains alot. We didn't even stake up the plants. In my defense, I was pregnant :wink:

Anyway, so this year we really want to plant some more veggies and maybe some herbs. We love to eat as much organic foods as possible but don't find a wide variety around here. Plus we want to enjoy the experience of working with the earth and producing our own food, something we can share with our children and hopefully get better and better at as the years go on.

I have a few questions...

My yard is pretty small and my dog has free range of the whole thing, so he's defecated just about everywhere. I know obviously I don't want him going where I've planted stuff, but does it matter if he's defecated somewhere before I do the planting? (we plan on fencing an area so that area is no longer available to him)

I was told by a professional that there is some lead paint around the bottom of the outside of my house and also on my garage, which is chipping off. How far away should I plant things so that they don't become contaminated?

Are raised beds neccessary? I've heard alot about them but don't know if they are needed or not for organic gardening.

I'm really very clueless about all this stuff, but I very much want to learn. I think I need to buy Organic Gardening for Dummies :lol:

cynthia_h
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You needn't buy any books: just go to your local public library and look at whatever they have under Dewey Decimal number 635 (Gardening) that looks useful to you.

I originally checked out Square Foot Gardening and the most recent ed. of John Jeavons' How to Grow More Vegetables, plus The Bountiful Container, from my library. Later I purchased these three titles. I don't want to tell you how many books I checked out that I did NOT purchase...saved TONS of money that way, though.

With your small baby, dog, family, house, I would recommend the library. More information in a smaller space than at a book store. Better perspective, too, since it's not dependent on the latest things, but the lasting thing(s).

Raised beds aren't required, but they're one way to make sure that there aren't weed seeds waiting to make your life miserable, and keeping the dog out of them is somewhat easier: they have their own "boundary." (But a fence will enforce the idea! :D Got dogs of my own and no fence; they've been very good w/regard to the raised beds.)

There *is* a lot to learn when beginning gardening. Rest assured that no one ever learns it *all.* Read what you can here at The Helpful Gardener, esp. under Organic Gardening, Vegetable Growing, Growing Tomatoes, and Compost.

Best wishes, and let us know how things come along for you.

Cynthia H.
Sunset Zone 17, USDA Zone 9

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asat,
Lead based paint was supposedly phased out in the U.S. back in the 1970s.(I think 1978?) How old is your house? If it predates 1980, lead paint maybe possible.
But, I'd ask myself, has that really old paint already been removed?
Assuming, the lead based paint is still on the house, how much is the paint chipping?
It might not be a problem at all.
Wishing you the best.

aset
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cynthia_h wrote:You needn't buy any books: just go to your local public library and look at whatever they have under Dewey Decimal number 635 (Gardening) that looks useful to you.
Thanks for that tip, I'll have to check it out! The thought hadn't occurred to me.

aset
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2cents wrote:asat,
Lead based paint was supposedly phased out in the U.S. back in the 1970s.(I think 1978?) How old is your house? If it predates 1980, lead paint maybe possible.
But, I'd ask myself, has that really old paint already been removed?
Assuming, the lead based paint is still on the house, how much is the paint chipping?
It might not be a problem at all.
Wishing you the best.
My house was built in the 1940s, and I know for sure thanks to testing that it is lead paint :(

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hendi_alex
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My dogs run lose on the 2.5 acres that are fenced around my house. As soon as we got a dog, about 16 years ago, I got into the habbit of going out every few days and scooping the poop and placing the feces in a shallow latrine dug in an out of the way part of the yard. That system has worked out great. Only rarely do we have a stepping in poop episode. Just because someone has a dog, in our case usually three, doesn't mean that dog feces has to contaminate the dog's roaming area.

Personally, I would consider raised beds filled with good quality soil, soil mix, compost if there was much chance at all of lead contamination and secondarily because of the fecal contamination. Also if you have chipping lead paint, the loose paint needs to be scrapped onto a tarp to collect it, and then the area needs to be painted over and sealed to prevent additional contamination of your soil. Perhaps consider getting a professional to do it, but it should be sealed regardless.

Cynthia is right about the many sources of info available to help in deciding the details of your gardening efforts. But removing or sealing lead paint, and scooping up and removing dog feces are simple common sense things that can be attended to while determining all of those other details. Do you really want your children playing in the yard where the dirt has lead residue and is also high in fecal contaminants like E. coli and perhaps cycts of parasites? Nothing much can be done wrt the existing contamination, but just a little work and a new routine will prevent future contamination from the site.

aset
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hendi_alex wrote:My dogs run lose on the 2.5 acres that are fenced around my house. As soon as we got a dog, about 16 years ago, I got into the habbit of going out every few days and scooping the poop and placing the feces in a shallow latrine dug in an out of the way part of the yard. That system has worked out great. Only rarely do we have a stepping in poop episode. Just because someone has a dog, in our case usually three, doesn't mean that dog feces has to contaminate the dog's roaming area.
Since I feel like you are questioning why there is feces in my yard, let me clarify that we have something like .1 of an acre. I don't have the luxury of being able to dig a latrine. In the summer time I do scoop the poop and kinda throw it in one corner of the yard so it's not all spread out, but this past winter it was left wherever it was laid because of the amount of snow that we had. So it won't be a problem in the summer again, when I do scoop it up. But what I was asking is will it hurt things if it once was there, like this winter. I think you answered my question though.
hendi_alex wrote:Personally, I would consider raised beds filled with good quality soil, soil mix, compost if there was much chance at all of lead contamination and secondarily because of the fecal contamination.
Okay, bear with me, because I'm sure I sound really dumb here... but what is the difference between soil and soil mix? And I'm gathering I should buy the soil rather than use what is in my yard, and if that's the case, what kind/where do I get it from?
hendi_alex wrote:Do you really want your children playing in the yard where the dirt has lead residue and is also high in fecal contaminants like E. coli and perhaps cycts of parasites?
Of course not. My kids don't play in the dirt, so I don't see how they are going to get lead contamination unless they eat something that's been grown in it, which is why I'm here asking about it. While my daughter (the baby I was pregnant with last year) is too young for this, my older son has been tested for lead levels a couple of times and he's fine. As for the fecal contaminants, that is again why I am here asking about it.

aset
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Alex, I'm sorry I forgot to include in my other post and I don't know how to go back and edit it, but I wanted to say thank you for the tips on cleaning up the paint and the raised beds.

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hendi_alex
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Yep, I guess the snow and ice do present a problem for feces removal in the northeast. But on 1/10 of an acre, in my mind, the waste presents a fairly high level of contamination, and is a problem, that needs to be considered. As far as children playing in the yard, when and if they do, they will eat the dirt. They play in the dirt, the hands eventually make it to eyes, ears, nose, mouth. That waste contamination can include bad bacteria and a wide range of possible parasites. So for me, would be a serious issue that presents tough choices with no simple solution, given your location and small amount of yard area.

My terminology is likely bad. But by soil, I'm talking about buying bulk or bagged top soil, dirt dug from the ground some where. By soil mix, I'm referring to lots of things, even what they call soilless mixes. So a soil mix could include soil with some conditioning additives like perlite or peat moss or other things. A soilless mix would contain no dirt, but would be a synthetic soil made of materials like peat moss, perlite, vermiculite, or other ingredients. I've used commercial potting soil, manure, leaves, and compost in my raised beds, but there is no rule about what is used as long as it is reasonably light, hold adequate moisture, and has adequate nutrients.

The thing that bothers me about dog feces the most, is that after it breaks down, you no longer see it, but it is still there, and any parasitic cycts and increased e. coli or other bacteria are also still there. After a long enough period the entire area is covered with these dormant critters. If your kids never play in the yard them that mostly isolates them from the highest concentration. But everytime someone walks out in that yard and comes back in or if the dog walks in the house, some amount of contamination comes in with them. And it is not like stepping in fresh feces, where you know you did it and you know to clean it up. With the normal 'clean' trips you see no evidence, there is nothing to clean up.

Finding a balance between the dog, the limited yard space, and garden may be a bit of a challenge for you. I certainly don't know the answer but some variation will hopefully come to mind such that there is room for each of your interests. But if not in the current yard, perhaps the next home will be more adaptable for pets, garden, and play areas. Sounds like you are young and have plenty of time to plan and adjusts. Good luck with your gardening interests. Hope I didn't sound too harsh in my earlier post. I've got a son in law who lets his dogs roam and the place is just plain nasty with doggy land mines about every square foot. That image flashed across my mind as typing the original response.

cynthia_h
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Let me try to address some of your questions, aset. Sorry if I miss something.

-- If there once was dog poo on a certain spot, and that spot has now been rained/snowed on over a period of months, don't worry about it.

-- Lead contamination can spread through dust as well as through chips. Physical contact with the lead-based paint isn't required for lead exposure to occur. I'm happy to hear that you've had your older child tested and that he's clear! :D I just wanted you to be aware of the "dust" possibility. If it turns out, at some point, that the lead paint needs to be removed/dealt with, please be sure to have certified lead-abatement professionals do the work.

-- The term "soil," as often used by gardeners, refers to the medium normally found in the ground. Also called ... "dirt." :wink: "Soil mix," however, as used by gardeners, is any combination of compost, vermiculite, peat, perlite, etc. used to grow plants/seeds. The advantages of soil mix (sometimes also called "potting soil," even though it contains no soil per se) are that you can control the acidity/alkalinity of it, there are no dormant weed seeds in it, and it's usually free of outside contamination. However, you want to be sure of your sources; incompletely composted cow manure, for example, could contain contaminants, as could (conceivably) other soil mix ingredients.

-- Where to get "soil mix" or the ingredients to make your own: a lot of people think of the big box stores (Lowe's and so on), but you can get infinitely better advice and information from local, independently owned garden-supply stores. They usually have more options as to kind of compost (mushroom? cow? grape? organic? non-organic?) and soil/potting mixes you can buy.

-- Making compost: Later on in your gardening life (maybe when new baby starts school? or if DH can help?), maybe you'll do some intensive composting, but for now, probably slow, cold-method composting will be the ticket so that, later this year or maybe next year, you can add your *own* compost to the soil mix. It's a great feeling to be able to do so, but many people do not or cannot make their own compost, so don't worry if it doesn't work for you at this stage of life. (Please see our Compost Forum for more info on "cold," "hot," "slow," "fast" etc. compost methods.)

-- How to edit your posts: when you read the messages here, you'll see in the upper right-hand corner of your own posts the little word "edit" in a light-colored oval against the gray background of the post. Click on "edit"; that post will appear in the same kind of box you originally typed in when you posted it. You can now type just as if you were typing for the first time, and when you hit "Submit," the new typing will appear. You will have "edited" your post! :)

Please let me know if I've missed anything.

Happy gardening!

Cynthia H.
Sunset Zone 17, USDA Zone 9

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aset,
by now you will have read some good advise from a alex and cynthia.
they have a wealth of knowledge and are here to help set each of us on proper ways to garden.
although I agree with what each says, the cost of professional abatement can be pricey. if that is an issue for you, may I suggest a couple options.
If you feel abatement is not affordable now, but you can afford a professional in the future(do as alex suggests) scrape with tarps to catch chips and seal and paint. Then hire a professional when it is financially feasible.
If this is never likely to be an affordable option, do your homework(professionals are simply educated in an area, the public generally lacks expertise); wear a mask(cheap paper ones usually are sufficient). Good quality scrapers, a variety till you find which works best for you. There is also heat guns for removing old paint(time intensive) a better mask would be advised. Or just sand it/sand blast the old paint off(this can damage the wood siding, careful) wear goggles. Power washers(messy) can be helpful for some applications, but not the end all and damage to wood siding can be an issue, wear goggles.
Masks and Tarps are required for all of these methods.
Other method, don't use tarps, scrape, then remove top 8 inches of dirt and get new dirt hauled to yout site. Cheaper to get a professional abatement company, although this may end up being their remedy.

aset
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hendi_alex wrote:Hope I didn't sound too harsh in my earlier post. I've got a son in law who lets his dogs roam and the place is just plain nasty with doggy land mines about every square foot. That image flashed across my mind as typing the original response.
LOL no, no problem. That image gave me a laugh though :lol:

We are definitely looking to move somewhere with a bigger yard so this isn't such a pain (amongst other reasons, of course.) In the meantime I'll probably try a small garden with raised beds with the topsoil like you said. Thanks for clarrifying the differences, I'll have to see what's available around here and go from there.

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I don't have a dog so peeps with actual experience may tell you differently, but I've been WANTING to get a couple of dogs (my quirk - any pet, get 2 or more) for some time now and I've been THINKING about the poop issue.

What I'm going to do is fence off an area lowest in slope from the house -- in my case, the yard backs up to a wooded area so that would be the perfect location -- and train/make sure they do their business there. I would situate a Doggy Dooley (doggy septic system) within the enclosure for ready disposal of their "presents". While the contaminant level would be high in this area, the biological activity from the Dooley seepage would be high as well, and the enclosure would be mulched by the leaves that fall within the enclosure. I'm sure the trees will be very happy. :wink:

Oh! I would probably grow a non-toxic ornamental vine on the fence. :D

aset
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cynthia_h wrote:Please let me know if I've missed anything.
Nope, I think you got it all, thanks so much :D

While we're at it though, I might as well ask if there is any way to reply to messages without hitting the quote button?

aset
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2cents wrote:aset,
by now you will have read some good advise from a alex and cynthia.
they have a wealth of knowledge and are here to help set each of us on proper ways to garden.
although I agree with what each says, the cost of professional abatement can be pricey. if that is an issue for you, may I suggest a couple options.
If you feel abatement is not affordable now, but you can afford a professional in the future(do as alex suggests) scrape with tarps to catch chips and seal and paint. Then hire a professional when it is financially feasible.
If this is never likely to be an affordable option, do your homework(professionals are simply educated in an area, the public generally lacks expertise); wear a mask(cheap paper ones usually are sufficient). Good quality scrapers, a variety till you find which works best for you. There is also heat guns for removing old paint(time intensive) a better mask would be advised. Or just sand it/sand blast the old paint off(this can damage the wood siding, careful) wear goggles. Power washers(messy) can be helpful for some applications, but not the end all and damage to wood siding can be an issue, wear goggles.
Masks and Tarps are required for all of these methods.
Other method, don't use tarps, scrape, then remove top 8 inches of dirt and get new dirt hauled to yout site. Cheaper to get a professional abatement company, although this may end up being their remedy.
Thank you for all the tips about it. I do think we are going to hire a professional to do the job. But if it does seem like it's going to be too costly, at least I know how to do it properly myself now :)

aset
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applestar wrote:I would situate a Doggy Dooley (doggy septic system) within the enclosure for ready disposal of their "presents".
I never heard of such a thing, thanks for mentioning it. That might actually work out really well, and you also got my wheels turning about how I can contain the messes even further. So thanks alot :D

cynthia_h
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To reply to a message without quoting it, look beneath the message--outside the gray box. You'll see the words "Post reply." Click that button, and you'll have a fresh, empty box to type your words in.

You can see a photo of a Doggy Dooley at www.doctorsfosterandsmith.com . These come in a variety of sizes, depending on the size of your dog(s).

Cynthia H.



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