Now I am curious, what is the definition of organic. Google says, A mental health condition. In this specific case I think Google is correct.
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Gary350
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Why are people so paranoid about organic.
Readyville TN has a grain mill on a stream that was built in 1812. It has had 3 or 4 new owners in the past 45 years. The owner that had it for the past 20 years built a restaurant inside the mill because stone ground corn meal and flour was not paying the bills. We have eaten there several times, breakfast, lunch, dinner, food is good, its a museum, its a 20 mile drive. This evening TV showed the new owner is running the mill on a gas engine because the stream is dry most of the time. People are complaining flour and corn meal are not organic anymore because of the gas engine.
Now I am curious, what is the definition of organic. Google says, A mental health condition. In this specific case I think Google is correct.
Now I am curious, what is the definition of organic. Google says, A mental health condition. In this specific case I think Google is correct.
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pepperhead212
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applestar
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“Organic” or “natural agricultural practices” or “chemical-free” … or whatever you choose to call it, I’m resigned to the compromise necessitated by the current and local levels of environmental awareness.
Some folks can achieve or have access to produce that have been grown in greater level of such agricultural methods.
Personally, I’m sensitive to petrochemical and VOC’s — I can tolerate very light exposure, but effect is cumulative and I will experience increasingly unpleasant symptoms until essentially passing out.
So in this scenario, I may or may not have been turned off by the mill being run with the gas engine, but if the gas exhaust was detectable to me, then, yeah, probably. And if the fumes had permeated to the point of affecting the quality of the flour and products being produced, I would complain, too.
You know how your hair can smell like fragrances or other smell that dominated where you had been? Odor molecules are persistent.
Some folks can achieve or have access to produce that have been grown in greater level of such agricultural methods.
Personally, I’m sensitive to petrochemical and VOC’s — I can tolerate very light exposure, but effect is cumulative and I will experience increasingly unpleasant symptoms until essentially passing out.
So in this scenario, I may or may not have been turned off by the mill being run with the gas engine, but if the gas exhaust was detectable to me, then, yeah, probably. And if the fumes had permeated to the point of affecting the quality of the flour and products being produced, I would complain, too.
You know how your hair can smell like fragrances or other smell that dominated where you had been? Odor molecules are persistent.
It is true, some people are very sensitive not only to food but also to other things like fragrances, fabric, and even air quality. It is like the gluten free thing. There are very few people in the world who are born with this genetic defect where they are unable to process gluten and actually do get sick from it. It is the same with PKU, only a small portion of the population are born with the inability to process it.
The individuals who are born with certain genetic disorders, the effects can be quite profound and cause very serious problems.
However, for the majority of the world, it really is not a problem.
Organic is a choice, not a necessity. Many people who have jumped on the organic bandwagon don't really understand what organic really means.
Organic only refers to how a product, be it a food or animal is raised using organic methods to promote use of animal byproducts, like manures instead of synthetic fertilizers and raising animals in a more humane way allowing them more space. However, just like you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. Some animals really would rather huddle together for safety rather than stay in a corner or in the open by themselves. For organic farming, it also means using methods to improve soil health through the use of organic fertilizers (usually of animal or plant origin, crop rotation, organic controls and pesticides. Many people mistakenly believe organic means that no pesticides are used. A myth that the organic coalition does not try to dispel, nor do they own up to the fact that organic pesticides are still toxic. If they aren't toxic, how good could they be?
It doesn't mean organic farmers don't drive internal combustion engine cars or don't use gas powered farm equipment. Although, some people can use waste oil or bio fuel, it doesn't mean it is a requirement. It means that animals are not given hormones or antibiotics routinely, but it does not mean a farmer will not treat their animals with modern medicine for pain or antibiotics if they get get sick. BTW, technically aren't fossil fuels inherently organic???
Organic promotes their vegetables as more nutritious. Making this claim with little scientific evidence. In fact most nutritionists agree that an organic carrot vs a conventional carrot of the same variety grown under similar circumstances are not significantly different.
As for pesticide residues, the food supply is monitored and conventional foods do meet safety standards and pesticide residues are very low and within the limits. Remember, it is not in the farmers interest to cheat, it would be costly to have a recall or negative publicity. Organic produce may have lower levels of pesticide residue, oh wait, no one really tests organic produce for organic pesticides now do they? And there cannot be organic fraud, where people claim something is organic when it is not?
Personally, I don't mind some imperfections in my produce at home because I choose whether it is necessary to use pesticides (synthetic or organic) on what I grow to eat. For the most part, I have a healthy garden patrol and I rely more on net barriers, plant diversity, and growing healthy plants (with synthetic fertilizer and selecting disease resistant cultivars over organic ones). Healthier plants greatly reduces the need to have to resort to chemical intervention. When I do have to resort to chemicals, I do try to target only the pests like slugs,snails, erineum mites, mosquitoes, and pickle worms and I only resort to chemicals when my tolerance threshold has been exceeded.
I prefer to use synthetic fertilizers, vermicast, and good compost when I can find it.
I select plants that are adapted for my extreme growing conditions and many of those are going to be hybrids with heat and disease tolerance and not organic.
I choose to use water and scouting as my primary pest control. I choose to do no dig or minimal tilling (mainly because it is too hard to double dig anymore). I do soil tests every three years or so, and select fertilizers based on what the soil needs. BTW, I use mainly synthetic fertilizers and my garden is full of earthworms, so there is another myth out the door as far as I am concerned about synthetic fertilizers killing soil life. It doesn't have to if it is not over done and carbon in the form of compost is also used to feed the soil. I however, want fertilizer to feed the plants. I like big plants.
I really don't see why it has to be one or the other. I see nothing wrong with incorporating both organic and conventional gardening methods. Driving a car, even an electric car uses power and locally our power plant is driven by diesel.
The greatest source of greenhouse gasses comes from farm productions.
The Netherlands plans to shut down over 3000 farm operations that they claim are the worst polluters, to reduce their carbon footprint to meet climate change goals. They are doing this when global food production is down due to war and the effects of drought and deluge caused by climate change. I would think if everyone turned on fewer lights, walked instead of driving short distances or consolidating trips and used their cars less, recycled more, generate less trash, preserved natural resources, ate less meat, wasted less food, and planted more gardens instead of demanding "pretty" tomatoes, and perfect fruits and vegetables at the market, less conspicuous consumption, making more asphalt, concrete, and artificial grass paths, it may be a less extreme way to deal with it.
As far as meat goes, there is a difference between grass fed and grain finished. Animals who do not get grain or herbivores not being fed fertilizer or animal parts do have less lean body mass, and fat. The quality of the fatty acids having more of the good kinds of fat, omega 3 vs omega 6 is different. Grass fed beef tastes different too and usually is less tender because there is less marbling. Animals allowed to graze their whole lives, will be leaner than an animal finished in a feedlot. Are they happier? Is it fair to judge how an animal feels using human standards of comfort? After all, in either case, these animals are still being raised for the same end purpose, unless you choose to be a vegetarian. But then, would it be cruelty to vegetables?
The individuals who are born with certain genetic disorders, the effects can be quite profound and cause very serious problems.
However, for the majority of the world, it really is not a problem.
Organic is a choice, not a necessity. Many people who have jumped on the organic bandwagon don't really understand what organic really means.
Organic only refers to how a product, be it a food or animal is raised using organic methods to promote use of animal byproducts, like manures instead of synthetic fertilizers and raising animals in a more humane way allowing them more space. However, just like you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. Some animals really would rather huddle together for safety rather than stay in a corner or in the open by themselves. For organic farming, it also means using methods to improve soil health through the use of organic fertilizers (usually of animal or plant origin, crop rotation, organic controls and pesticides. Many people mistakenly believe organic means that no pesticides are used. A myth that the organic coalition does not try to dispel, nor do they own up to the fact that organic pesticides are still toxic. If they aren't toxic, how good could they be?
It doesn't mean organic farmers don't drive internal combustion engine cars or don't use gas powered farm equipment. Although, some people can use waste oil or bio fuel, it doesn't mean it is a requirement. It means that animals are not given hormones or antibiotics routinely, but it does not mean a farmer will not treat their animals with modern medicine for pain or antibiotics if they get get sick. BTW, technically aren't fossil fuels inherently organic???
Organic promotes their vegetables as more nutritious. Making this claim with little scientific evidence. In fact most nutritionists agree that an organic carrot vs a conventional carrot of the same variety grown under similar circumstances are not significantly different.
As for pesticide residues, the food supply is monitored and conventional foods do meet safety standards and pesticide residues are very low and within the limits. Remember, it is not in the farmers interest to cheat, it would be costly to have a recall or negative publicity. Organic produce may have lower levels of pesticide residue, oh wait, no one really tests organic produce for organic pesticides now do they? And there cannot be organic fraud, where people claim something is organic when it is not?
Personally, I don't mind some imperfections in my produce at home because I choose whether it is necessary to use pesticides (synthetic or organic) on what I grow to eat. For the most part, I have a healthy garden patrol and I rely more on net barriers, plant diversity, and growing healthy plants (with synthetic fertilizer and selecting disease resistant cultivars over organic ones). Healthier plants greatly reduces the need to have to resort to chemical intervention. When I do have to resort to chemicals, I do try to target only the pests like slugs,snails, erineum mites, mosquitoes, and pickle worms and I only resort to chemicals when my tolerance threshold has been exceeded.
I prefer to use synthetic fertilizers, vermicast, and good compost when I can find it.
I select plants that are adapted for my extreme growing conditions and many of those are going to be hybrids with heat and disease tolerance and not organic.
I choose to use water and scouting as my primary pest control. I choose to do no dig or minimal tilling (mainly because it is too hard to double dig anymore). I do soil tests every three years or so, and select fertilizers based on what the soil needs. BTW, I use mainly synthetic fertilizers and my garden is full of earthworms, so there is another myth out the door as far as I am concerned about synthetic fertilizers killing soil life. It doesn't have to if it is not over done and carbon in the form of compost is also used to feed the soil. I however, want fertilizer to feed the plants. I like big plants.
I really don't see why it has to be one or the other. I see nothing wrong with incorporating both organic and conventional gardening methods. Driving a car, even an electric car uses power and locally our power plant is driven by diesel.
The greatest source of greenhouse gasses comes from farm productions.
The Netherlands plans to shut down over 3000 farm operations that they claim are the worst polluters, to reduce their carbon footprint to meet climate change goals. They are doing this when global food production is down due to war and the effects of drought and deluge caused by climate change. I would think if everyone turned on fewer lights, walked instead of driving short distances or consolidating trips and used their cars less, recycled more, generate less trash, preserved natural resources, ate less meat, wasted less food, and planted more gardens instead of demanding "pretty" tomatoes, and perfect fruits and vegetables at the market, less conspicuous consumption, making more asphalt, concrete, and artificial grass paths, it may be a less extreme way to deal with it.
As far as meat goes, there is a difference between grass fed and grain finished. Animals who do not get grain or herbivores not being fed fertilizer or animal parts do have less lean body mass, and fat. The quality of the fatty acids having more of the good kinds of fat, omega 3 vs omega 6 is different. Grass fed beef tastes different too and usually is less tender because there is less marbling. Animals allowed to graze their whole lives, will be leaner than an animal finished in a feedlot. Are they happier? Is it fair to judge how an animal feels using human standards of comfort? After all, in either case, these animals are still being raised for the same end purpose, unless you choose to be a vegetarian. But then, would it be cruelty to vegetables?
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Gary350
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- Joined: Mon Mar 23, 2009 1:59 pm
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I have not been to the mill sense they installed the gas engine, I hope the owner is smart enough to have exhaust fumes so no one can smell them or hear the engine run that would be a big turn off. I like the sound of the wooden gears going click click click click click. I like the sound the grain being ground up.
I am very paranoid about putting toxic chemicals in my garden and on my plants to kill bugs and weeds. I don't think a gas engine will effect corn meal and flour as long as engine exhaust is not blowing on corm meat and flour that would be bad. I am not paranoid about synthetic fertilizer. If I pass someone in the store that has on a lot of perfume they make me sneeze. When I get near the soap isle in the store it makes me sneeze.
Not many of the people in Amish country still use horses to plow their fields. Several Amish people around here have tractors and steam engines. Steam engines are interesting to see them and hear them run.
I am very paranoid about putting toxic chemicals in my garden and on my plants to kill bugs and weeds. I don't think a gas engine will effect corn meal and flour as long as engine exhaust is not blowing on corm meat and flour that would be bad. I am not paranoid about synthetic fertilizer. If I pass someone in the store that has on a lot of perfume they make me sneeze. When I get near the soap isle in the store it makes me sneeze.
Not many of the people in Amish country still use horses to plow their fields. Several Amish people around here have tractors and steam engines. Steam engines are interesting to see them and hear them run.
There are always people who jump on any fad whether it makes sense or not. I think the gluten fad is waning in popularity. Grocery stores that stock page amounts of "organic" produce are beginning to reduce shelf space because it make no economic sense to toss so much product because of the prohibitive price.
Folks have asked me about being "organic" and my response is that my plants don't know the difference between chemical and non-chemical fertilizers and pesticides are used in a responsible way by following label instructions. I also hoe rather than spray. Integrated Pest Management is the procedure followed in my gardens: use only what chemical deterrent that is absolutely needed and only after all other non-chemical methods have been used.
Since none of my produce is sold and only for personal use, it is my choice how the food is grown. I choose to use as little chemical as possible and wash the harvest before eating. In the wintertime we purchase the regular produce rather than organic; when seeds are for sale we go with non-organic rather than the more expensive "organically grown."
Organic is, in my opinion, a buzz word and very little what is sold as "organic" is actually strictly organic. As for odors, would a person with lots of perfume change the structure of a vegetable they harvested? Would a car exhaust in the parking lot make food be different for an establishment after the entry door opens several times? Does food lose its designation "organic" because it is seasoned with a chemical called salt? Organic proponents are just a little goofy sometimes.
Folks have asked me about being "organic" and my response is that my plants don't know the difference between chemical and non-chemical fertilizers and pesticides are used in a responsible way by following label instructions. I also hoe rather than spray. Integrated Pest Management is the procedure followed in my gardens: use only what chemical deterrent that is absolutely needed and only after all other non-chemical methods have been used.
Since none of my produce is sold and only for personal use, it is my choice how the food is grown. I choose to use as little chemical as possible and wash the harvest before eating. In the wintertime we purchase the regular produce rather than organic; when seeds are for sale we go with non-organic rather than the more expensive "organically grown."
Organic is, in my opinion, a buzz word and very little what is sold as "organic" is actually strictly organic. As for odors, would a person with lots of perfume change the structure of a vegetable they harvested? Would a car exhaust in the parking lot make food be different for an establishment after the entry door opens several times? Does food lose its designation "organic" because it is seasoned with a chemical called salt? Organic proponents are just a little goofy sometimes.
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applestar
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- Location: Zone 6, NJ (3/M)4/E ~ 10/M(11/B)
Fragrances are the worst IMHO. I can’t walk through laundry aisles or even nearby aisles. (“ ‘Freshness’ lasts for months!” !UGGH! THAT is NOT ‘freshness’ OK? 
)
We have to leave supposedly “unscented” toilet papers as well as kitchen papers that have no business smelling like laundry dryer sheets or fabric softeners in the garage (we don’t put our cars in it) to “outgas” for a week or more sometimes.
If the groceries have been handled by someone wearing (heavy?) fragrance — whether that had been perfume, cologne, moisturizers and personal products, laundry products on their clothes, etc. — I’m guessing the fragrances are absorbed into their system and exuded with their perspiration. Because I can smell the fragrances on the yogurt cups and beverage containers, even packages for vegetables and vegetables that are not wrapped that are directly handled. I avoid touching HANDLES OF BAGS.
Items that don’t have to be immediately refrigerated are banished to “quarantine” and what can be removed from outer packages are repackaged, and what can be washed are washed. Outer layers of vegetables that can, are stripped and discarded.
Does that seem extreme? Yeah. Does it seem like people are being brainwashed into accepting these HORRIBLE SMELLS as normal? …Even, somehow, GOOD? To me, yeah.
Whether ultimately, I’m the one that has merely failed to “adapt” or if there is some kind of cumulative health effect even if undetected and nobody is bothering to test for them probably won’t be revealed until much much later ( just like some of the others ).
(cough) Shutting up and getting off my soapbox now…..
) We have to leave supposedly “unscented” toilet papers as well as kitchen papers that have no business smelling like laundry dryer sheets or fabric softeners in the garage (we don’t put our cars in it) to “outgas” for a week or more sometimes.
If the groceries have been handled by someone wearing (heavy?) fragrance — whether that had been perfume, cologne, moisturizers and personal products, laundry products on their clothes, etc. — I’m guessing the fragrances are absorbed into their system and exuded with their perspiration. Because I can smell the fragrances on the yogurt cups and beverage containers, even packages for vegetables and vegetables that are not wrapped that are directly handled. I avoid touching HANDLES OF BAGS.
Items that don’t have to be immediately refrigerated are banished to “quarantine” and what can be removed from outer packages are repackaged, and what can be washed are washed. Outer layers of vegetables that can, are stripped and discarded.
Does that seem extreme? Yeah. Does it seem like people are being brainwashed into accepting these HORRIBLE SMELLS as normal? …Even, somehow, GOOD? To me, yeah.
Whether ultimately, I’m the one that has merely failed to “adapt” or if there is some kind of cumulative health effect even if undetected and nobody is bothering to test for them probably won’t be revealed until much much later ( just like some of the others ).
(cough) Shutting up and getting off my soapbox now…..
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applestar
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- Location: Zone 6, NJ (3/M)4/E ~ 10/M(11/B)
OK that was a bit OT — in terms of organic agricultural practices — here are some “food for thought”
Even before discussing the fertilizers as being chemically pure molecules and compounds vs. “organic”, the established convention seems to be to (1) treat the field/soil with pesticides, fungicides and herbicides, (2) treat the seeds with fungicides and pesticides (3) treat the growing vegetable plants and surrounding environment with pesticides, fungicides and broad or grass weed herbicides as applicable
Those pre- and early chemicals appear to be acceptable as long as they are supposed to be “non-toxic” by the time they are harvested. Varying degrees of toxicity or non-toxicity according to different testing methods and agencies, and some are not tested for combination or cumulative effects.
There are also products that are used for pre-harvesting, and post-harvesting processing, and for storage.
There are always “permissible” amounts of “residue”.
“Organic” agricultural industry has sought to develop or identify equivalent products so it’s still a matter of just how they are being used and to what degree.
Can we rely on some kind of regulation that makes sense? Is one more reliable than the other? Does it matter that other countries restrict some things that are considered OK by others? Do you (need to) pay attention to what country or what US state the produce have been grown and harvested?
COMPLETELY different story when it comes to backyard home gardening. I believe in educated personal choice. Your choice, too, to learn more .. or not … especially in this day and age of access to information.
Even in terms of products that are available … although internet shopping is making the “professional”/“commercial” use products available/accessible. So, yeah, READ ALL OF THE LABEL including the fine prints.
…Aaaand, me, getting off the 2nd soapbox.
Even before discussing the fertilizers as being chemically pure molecules and compounds vs. “organic”, the established convention seems to be to (1) treat the field/soil with pesticides, fungicides and herbicides, (2) treat the seeds with fungicides and pesticides (3) treat the growing vegetable plants and surrounding environment with pesticides, fungicides and broad or grass weed herbicides as applicable
Those pre- and early chemicals appear to be acceptable as long as they are supposed to be “non-toxic” by the time they are harvested. Varying degrees of toxicity or non-toxicity according to different testing methods and agencies, and some are not tested for combination or cumulative effects.
There are also products that are used for pre-harvesting, and post-harvesting processing, and for storage.
There are always “permissible” amounts of “residue”.
“Organic” agricultural industry has sought to develop or identify equivalent products so it’s still a matter of just how they are being used and to what degree.
Can we rely on some kind of regulation that makes sense? Is one more reliable than the other? Does it matter that other countries restrict some things that are considered OK by others? Do you (need to) pay attention to what country or what US state the produce have been grown and harvested?
COMPLETELY different story when it comes to backyard home gardening. I believe in educated personal choice. Your choice, too, to learn more .. or not … especially in this day and age of access to information.
Even in terms of products that are available … although internet shopping is making the “professional”/“commercial” use products available/accessible. So, yeah, READ ALL OF THE LABEL including the fine prints.
…Aaaand, me, getting off the 2nd soapbox.
Actually, organic has become so popular that it is hard to avoid it. There are so many more choices for organic and gluten free foods, that is sometimes hard to find the regular ones.
Organic produce sections, I agree remain a very small part of what a store offers and it is pricey.
For myself, I prefer to do hybrid gardening. I have a worm bin and I added compost to the garden regularly. I also do soil tests about every three years and base my fertilizer regimen on the soil test. I do minimal tilling and I have a lot of earthworms in the main garden and even in the conventional containers. I choose to use synthetic fertilizers because it is the best option for me in terms of avoiding things like phosphorus I don't need, and animal by products I prefer to avoid unless it is the best option. I do a lot of container gardening and it is harder to use organic in smaller containers. I do use fish emulsion, but I don't like to use it because it is stinky and heavy to lug around. I do use IPM. I have a fairly balanced yard that includes a nectar and pollen garden to attract beneficial insects so I did not have many pests until last year. Most of those pests are coming from the neighbor's hibiscus hedge and weedy trees.
I am sensitive to some odors. Neem gives me a headache, so I don't use it. Although a lot of people seem to think it is the only organic pesticide around.
Organic produce sections, I agree remain a very small part of what a store offers and it is pricey.
For myself, I prefer to do hybrid gardening. I have a worm bin and I added compost to the garden regularly. I also do soil tests about every three years and base my fertilizer regimen on the soil test. I do minimal tilling and I have a lot of earthworms in the main garden and even in the conventional containers. I choose to use synthetic fertilizers because it is the best option for me in terms of avoiding things like phosphorus I don't need, and animal by products I prefer to avoid unless it is the best option. I do a lot of container gardening and it is harder to use organic in smaller containers. I do use fish emulsion, but I don't like to use it because it is stinky and heavy to lug around. I do use IPM. I have a fairly balanced yard that includes a nectar and pollen garden to attract beneficial insects so I did not have many pests until last year. Most of those pests are coming from the neighbor's hibiscus hedge and weedy trees.
I am sensitive to some odors. Neem gives me a headache, so I don't use it. Although a lot of people seem to think it is the only organic pesticide around.