Glyphosate and Roundup Revisited

[ahughes798]

Why the anti-glyphosate rant is a sticky and locked topic.

[opabinia51]

The glyphosate thread is not a rant, it is an informative post that I made so that people could educate themselves on the product. It has been banned in several cities.

We talk a lot about not using anything that ends in the suffix -cide here because of the detrimental effects that such products have on plants, soil, wildlife and even human health. So, the post was made by me to inform people about the active ingredient in that specific product. I derived the material from a very popular organic gardening book from the West Coast.

[doccat5]

Opa, you need to do some more research, some of that information on Roundup is outdated and some is incorrect.

[webmaster]

Feel free to start a Roundup discussion.

[doccat5]

Can do Mr. webmaster, and btw, how can I get one of those nifty avies? I can't seem to get one to resize.

Thanks!

[opabinia51]

I personally do not believe that the information is outdated, glyphosate is a hazardous chemical and does have negative effects on soil soil ecology. Regardless of newer information that may come up on herbicides and what not, they do have a negative effect on soil ecosystems. All scientific studies that I have read using herbicides and other poisons vastly harm the ecosystems that they were trialed in.

Peer reviewed research points to the fact that the use of poisons harms both soil, animal and human health. Peer reviewed research also shows that the microflora growing on plant foliage in very healthy and good for fiighting plant disease.

Using chemical warfare on plants is subverting mother natures natural defense mechanisms. Furthermore, studies done on North Americans has shown that we do have and increased amount of toxins in our systems. There has been no direct correlation between this and some of the health problems that we are currently suffering from but, it is better to be cognisant of potential problems.

Poisons like DDT, Roundup, 2,4 D and so on are rampantly used in North America and in third world countries with no education about their lethal side effects. I have seen the direct effects of people working under these conditions and it is scary.

I also have colleagues that agree with what I have described here. And I have researched these topics extensively using both books and peer reviewed journals. I have read hundreds of articles over the years and i've done laboratory experimentation.

And I have friends and colleagues who have not only worked and ran large scale agricultural farms in the food industry and seen the direct effects of these chemicals on human, plant and animal health but, some of them have also gone on to do graduate work in this field.

Furthermore I have other colleagues who work hands on trying to sway the corporate mist that is pulled over our eyes right now and work with people in third world countries where a lot of these chemicals are used rampantly.

But yes, let's continue this discussion.

[ahughes798]

I used to be really, really anti-herbicide, too....until I started working in natural areas management.

And you know what....if you're working in natural areas management...fire and Round-up/Rodeo are your friends. How in the edited do you cover 500 acres in 8 inches of mulch to discourage non-native invasive species?

Yes, glyphosate has environmental effects. But used sparingly and wisely, THEY ARE MINIMAL. Scott's Weed N' Feed is much more detrimental, and everybody and their mother uses it all the time.

[TheLorax]

I doubt seriously if anyone at THG would disagree that RoundUp is bad stuff. Don't understand why there would be a need to start a whole new thread though. Wouldn't it be best to keep all discussions together so that lurkers may find them? Maybe someone could unlock the sticky so that others might be in a position to share their opinions on "best science". I wanted to comment a month ago and found it odd that particular sticky was locked when others weren't.

That being said, Rodeo and AquaMaster are far superior glyphosate products than RoundUp if one really must resort to using this type of an herbicide.

[opabinia51]

I'll tell everyone a little story about my ancestors back in the 1800's in Rural (there as only Rural) Sasksatchewen. They farmed 6 sections (which, incidentally is still farmed by the family today) and James William did not use herbicides, pesticides and the like. Every morning he would get up and start to walk his fields (probably used horses but, the story is that he walked them) and would pluck any unwanted plants out of the ground.

We can fast forward to 10 years ago when I friend of mine had his property on Sask, and they didn't use any harmful chemicals either. They did use a tractor as it is very tough to manage land without such implements.

[ahughes798]

I disagree that it is bad stuff.

[TheLorax]

Take into consideration the cumulative effects of millions of property owners looking for a quick, easy, and cheap fix all armed with their handy dandy dispensers ready and willing to take aim and fire. Millions of gallons of ejected silver bullet spray is being aimed at anything green regardless of air temps, wind velocity, timing, or even if glyphosate will kill what it's being aimed at. And all of this is being hurled into our environment annually.

What percentage of the population do you believe is using RoundUp in accordance with the label? I truly believe the vast majority of people using the product simply aren't taking time to read the label let alone bothering to call the 800# on the dispensers with any questions they have.

You strike me as someone who is probably all too familiar with the existence of glyphosate resistant weeds. My bet is what's manifested itself so far is but a drop in the bucket of what's to come if we don't begin turning to more environmentally friendly methods of controlling our undesirables.

[webmaster]

>>>I disagree that it is bad stuff.

It's fine that you disagree, because from disagreements we can challenge and test commonly held assumptions. While we can challenge and test them, I would also like to remind that being discussions, nobody wins or loses, these are discussions not debates. Everyone can read the thread and make up their own mind, and they will make up their minds differently. Just a friendly heads up to everybody.

When discussing the environmental impact versus economic expenditure or impact, this is where philosphical beliefs and economic realities are going to lock horns on level with religious disagreements. This is the fork in the road where one herd goes this way, and the other herd goes thatta way.

The second part about minimal use/minimal damage may strike some as a bit nebulous because it depends on the definition of minimal and how much damage is acceptable. I fully understand that covering 500 acres in mulch is daunting and maybe a non-starter as far as ideas go, but does that really justify a (slightly) harmful solution/shortcut? The answer depends on the view of several demands and issues from where one stands.

I think these issues go deeper than whether or not herbicides are good, bad, or acceptable under certain conditions. I suspect that the answer to where one stands on chemical solutions depends on the philosophical ground you stand on in relation to the desired result and the ecology, and whether ecological compromises are justified or not. I agree with you 100% that the answer is easier for a home gardener than it is for someone who is a custodian of hundreds of acres.

[ahughes798]

It's bad stuff when used by people who can't read labels and follow simple directions.

I still maintain that Scott's Weed N Feed has much more dire effects on the environment than glyphosate. I'd be willing to bet that 100% of the people who use glyphosate responsibly and per the dilution rates are causing lots less environmental damage than the people who use Chem-Lawn. Or is it called True Green, now?

[ahughes798]

I fully understand that covering 500 acres in mulch is daunting and maybe a non-starter as far as ideas go, but does that really justify a (slightly) harmful solution/shortcut?

Yes. Try getting enough volunteers to pull 500 acres of non-native invasive plants.

[TheLorax]

The 100% of the people who use glyphosate responsibly and per the dilution rates are probably outnumbered 100 to 1 by those who don't. That's a good enough reason for me to want RoundUp and most other pesticides removed from shelves.

Let the small percentage of people who have the wherewithal to pursue an applicators license do so. That would certainly cut down on the amount of pesticides introduced to the environment while prompting people to re-think their weed management strategies.