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What do you need? What does it take?

Here are some ideas. First, from the USDA, a 10 page pdf file, check out Table 13-7: Per capita consumption of major food commodities

I found more recent information from the USDA but it was for daily consumption by the cup. That didn't seem to apply very well for an annual garden.

What could a garden produce? Here is a short pdf file: Small Plot and Intensive Gardening from Purdue University. Again, it is a a pdf file but both are text with no pictures so - quick downloads.

We can make some sense of these and other ideas. Then there is practical experience in our locations. Worth thinking about? Doable? How about for you?

Steve

I know I cannot grow enough produce to meet all my needs year round. Some things just don't do well. However, choices can be made to maximize yield in a minimum space. The amount you plant per row depends on what you need not what you can plant. Choosing to plant what you like, is easy to grow, relatively expensive to buy, and is productive enough to warrant the space it needs. Using space wisely, growing vertically and inter planting. You will also need to think about inputs to be self sufficient, like composting and recycling, solar energy to be off grid as much as possible, maybe even keeping some animals for eggs and milk (and recycling garden waste. Love those worms for the worm compost).

Charts are good to give you an idea of yields and spacing, but row planting only works if you have a lot of space. What is more important to me is spacing between plants, timing planting and yield per square foot. Repeat harvests are better than just one.

I am doing o.k. with spacing, although sometimes I still crowd. I plant larger and longer lived plants in pots that I can move as space is required rather than take up space in my main garden where they end up bumping into each other if I don't give them enough space. I still have to work on timing so that things don't mature all at once; faster than I can use it. I still have a surplus of some things, like peppers. But they are good for trading. I trade calamandin and peppers for pancit, lumpia, and plate lunches. It is a good deal, but bad for my waistline.

This is how one family turned a city yard into an almost self sufficient lot. They even make their own biofuel. They still have to buy some things though.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IbODJiEM5A

I might be better off in the tropics. But then again, I don't really understand growing plants in the tropics .

Growing plants in beds and using garden space carefully is how I prefer to do it. I still use rows in beds but I have so much ground available that I have a concern about allowing too much room for weeds. Therefore, I cultivate (along with the tractor guy) more ground than is necessary.

Food preservation has been a practice for a long time, even though I don't can food. DW doesn't care for it and, really, isn't too happy with frozen vegetables. I find that freezing is simple and useful. No, I'm not talking about living off the grid.

Remember when people had frozen food lockers? Even when I lived without the benefit of a home freezer, I had a locker and was probably one of their most frequent clients, showing up with a jacket, cold or hot weather, and going through that heavy door.

For several years, we have sold fresh produce at a farmers' market. I say that we sell our fresh vegetables during the summer so that we can buy broccoli from the grocery store during the winter ...

Steve

Oh boy, what 'can of worms' are we getting into this time? (Edited)

Not easily right now, but potentially. It partly depends on the situation (such as no electricity or gas) I do have some experience and an established garden to start from, if need be. I suspect I would survive if I had to, but it might be a fairly rough transition. I find it worth and even entertaining thinking about, even if it doesn't currently affect my gardening much. I like learning from history towards gardens and farming anyways, such as the Victory gardens. Granted, the garden is merely a tasty supplement right now.

What do I need?: A lot, mostly seeds. Depending, some grain crop, like rye or oats. Preferably a grain mill to crank, or else grind in mortar and pedestal, or between two rocks.... A scythe with a cradle (catches grain plants) and a thresher would be handy. I would prefer potatoes that produce 'True Potato Seeds'. 'Waterbottle Gourd' seeds. Some herbs and paste tomatoes (for ketchup).
Cold frames wouldn't take too long to build to start plants early in the garden. I would prefer to have a bad (moldy, unfit for livestock) round haybale beside the garden to mulch half-arm deep to slow down weeds for over half the growing season, though I would have to reapply mulch about twice. If I couldn't run a tiller (takes gas, and mechanical knowledge when it doesn't just 'start right up'), the initial weeding is a little harder (weeds are well-established in this garden). Draft animals require some acreage to feed and make their hay too, and you still have to shovel out their stalls. I do need to know what plants I need for my nutrients throughout the year.

What does it take?: Easy answer, all day and a lot more hand labor to feed 3 additional people. It would definitely be a change in my cooking and 'diet'. I do like frozen vegetables though, and it should help I have a few home-grown foods I wouldn't hesitate to eat. I could learn to cook on a woodstove (feed firewood) if I had to, right now I preheat water on it, although I did bake a few pancakes on one. Harder answer, at least double the garden's size. If I have the luxury of time, I can intentionally (this time) kill grass by laying a hay tarp on the lawn for a few months (just weigh it down extremely well, it makes a suprisingly good 'kite'), or mulch half arm-deep. I might have an interesting time starting plants indoors if electric doesn't power the grow-light to supplement in addition to sunlight through the window.
Hand-picking off Colorado Potato Beetles into a jar of soapy water, and finding their orange egg clusters underneath the potato leaves to squish is a lot of time and energy. Shorter children can be handy at such a time. The real labor is in hoeing potatoes out of the ground (use the corner of hoe straight down, pull in slight diagonal stroke across potato row, you want to minimize 'stabbing' your supper).
Water is an important consideration. Is your water source close enough to irrigate or carry in, or do you have to rely on drough-tolerant crops? Do you need to install a hand-pumped well?
Community can also be important, you may need a blacksmith, and it would be great not to have looting of crops or tools.
Seed saving is a crucial part, I know you want to save enough seeds for 2 years (in case you have a poor growing season). You also want rodent-proof containers for storing your grain harvest (and seeds), this was a big deal when first established historically.
Storage is a consideration, cellars (keep apples and potatoes in different rooms), canning (easier with running water and a means to cook), fermenting (like sauerkraut), drying (raisins), springhouse (milk), stuff that lasts 'on the shelf' like cheese (just don't eat the harder and mebe moldy outside part).
Calorie crops seem to be part of the 'puzzle'. Biointensive gardening and the market-gardener tools seemed interesting. Horizontal Resistance breeding also seemed interesting to me (https://sharebooks.com/).

I'm also wondering what to do for calories between the main harvests, such as between the pea harvest in spring/earlier summer to the autumn corn harvest. There might be 'holes' when crops aren't ready to eat yet.
'Food forest guilds' might be handy, even though it would go outside the veggie garden.

Hydroponics and aquaponics might also be handy, but I want to go through the learning curve beforehand, not wait until when you need the harvest most. It might be important to keep it minimal dependency on electricity.

You can (with more labor) prepare and weave willow (or hazel or other plants) to create your own 'tomato cage' or wattle fencing.

I haven't tried making paper from sunflower plant stalks (the white layer), but it would be more labor-intensive. I haven't tried making ink out of cherries or berries yet either, it might work with a quill pen.
I might have to learn the time of year by looking at the stars (if we couldn't get the Farmer's Almanac calendar).

They way I am gardening in more recent years are 'baby steps' towards potentially practical. I do however find row gardens very practical, in regard to actually pushing a push plow/cultivator. I do not want to cover every square inch of soil that way, that is way too much work, particularly without tilling it beforehand to loosen it up for me (soil's compact again by end of growing season).
So I went from sweet corn and shelling peas to the 'baby step' of trying Luffa 'sponge' gourds, Soapwart plants(essentially volunteers), Flax (the tall 2ft kind that can be made into linen cloth with a lot of labor), and Spagetti Squash. I would not advise trying every kind plant all at once if not necessary, particularly without an experienced gardener to help new gardeners in a 'crash-course' of a learning curve.

I might be able to do so, if I could keep buying or bartering for flour and get more seeds. My garden would be bigger and weedy (not picture-perfect), but I can focus weeding different veggi plants (or non veggies) when they need it most (like I do anyways). We wouldn't necessarily have to do it the old-fashioned way, but having the tools on-hand, with the knowledge of how to use them, may prove to be invaluable. We just do the best with the tools and resources we have and hopefully come out alive and not too hungry.

Ha! PracticalGardener, first off - I read in another thread that you may have to dust off your cookbooks. I immediately realized that the pumpkin cornbread had better be mixed because DW had already put a beef roast in the oven. (Of course, after I had it mixed, I also realized that the cornbread and roast couldn't cook at the same temperature!)

Anyway, this isn't a pumpkin that went into the mix - it's a spaghetti squash. The blender did a good job turning it into a puree. My story this afternoon could have been in "what are you eating from the garden?" However, this squash was from the 2019 garden. I understood that they are long-keepers and that was why I wanted to try them. The C. maxima squash that I grow every year can have problems by 1 February but they get me through Thanksgiving and Christmas, just fine.

For a few years, I grew Painted Mountain flour corn and made cornbread. And, I have no grain mill. What was suggested to me by another gardener was to soak the kernels overnight then use a blender. It worked! The Painted Mountain wasn't grown very long altho it did just fine -- the sweet corn was having a few flour corn kernels show up on the ears from pollen drift. Oops!

Flour corn did play a role in my 3 Sisters garden scheme. I suspected that Native Americans were planting those 3 crops and leaving them the entire growing season to mature. So, flour corn, dry beans and winter squash ... that works .

Steve
not a preppy

It is estimated that it takes 3.25 acres to support one person on a Western diet. To feed 7 billion + people in the world on a Western diet would take 3 earths. I googled how much land would be needed to be able to be able to grow enough food to be self sufficient.

Not surprisingly, the answer was.....it depends.
It depends on
1. The quality of the soil
2 Climate. If you have a long growing season and you plant well, you can grow more food in the same space. Cooperation from the weather can determine success or failure
3. Selection of plants and if you want to include meats, dairy. Selecting the right animals and recycling nutrients. If you want to keep the system sustainable and you have to limit outside inputs as much as possible.
4. Working with nature to create a balanced ecosystem.
5. The number of people you are planning to sustain
6. Maximizing yield per square foot.

If you have a short growing season, you would have to have a lot of land to maximize your growing space. Would you have
enough stored or alternative food sources for the rest of the year?

Corn, wheat and soy are the top commodities grown in the U.S.,that take up the most land, but most of it is grown to feed livestock. Guess what, feeding herbivores meat by-products to boost protein, and feeding obligate carnivores like dogs and cats vegetables, grains, legumes, and other plants 88% with 8%-12% protein, mostly parts that are considered offalls and less desirable quality of meat for human consumption, are both just wrong. No wonder people and animal health has been hurt by these practices.

https://www.onegreenplanet.org/animalsa ... lds-grain/

Accounts vary depending on what you grow and the kind of diet and nutritional level you want to maintain, it can take anywhere from 800 sf to 5 acres per person.

For me, I know I cannot grow everything I need to be 100% sustainable. I have a 365 day growing season, and about 2000 sf of growing space between my three gardens (minus pathways, fences, and HOA requirements.

I do use compost, but I buy it. I only do vermicomposting and trench composting. I still need to add additional compost and fertilizer. I spend a lot on slug bait as I don't have predators and on weed control. I don't spend a lot on pesticides because I do have a good garden patrol and I can use barriers, and cheap alternatives (alcohol and water) for most of them.

I can grow all the green onions, most of the herbs, eggplant, hot peppers (surplus), lemons, limes, ginger that I need. I actually feel guilty and shocked to find out how much they would cost if I have to buy them.

I cannot grow enough, or grow well carrots, onions, garlic, and potatoes, at least not enough for an entire year. I don't grow them very well so they are rarely worthwhile.

I can grow cucumbers, lettuce (seasonally) and other greens, Asian greens, beans (I just don't like to eat them), snow peas(seasonally), tomatoes, papaya, banana (if I wanted to. However, I don't want to feed thieves or have to fix fences and locks), beets, herbs, ginger, and daikon. If I had the space I could grow sweet potato ( It is more productive than potatoes, since the leaves are also edible), chayote, and hyotan. I can grow other squashes but they take up a lot of space and they are hard to ripen because of fruit flies stinging them. I have a surplus of some things I do give some of it away, and I could preserve or store more rather than let it so much of it become compost.

I could be more sustainable than I am, but even if I did maximize all of my growing space, and preserved or stored more of the harvest, I still would not be self sufficient. That's because I would have to radically change my diet and give up all the things I cannot grow like the onions, potatoes, most of the carrots, celery and other things I either don't grow well or can't grow sustainably. I would have to also give up meat, since I don't have any farm animals, and I don't even like to fish, or eat it.

I ran a combine over 100's of acres harvesting wheat and oats. They weren't my acres . Back on the Oregon farm of my childhood, Dad grew oats and peas as an annual hay crop. Back on the Idaho farm of my young adult life, I grew oats for the same purpose ... when I came home from working on the neighbors' farms.

Leaving the country and in my garden, I have grown flour corn for a few years and made cornbread . Pollen drift discouraged me from continuing because the flour corn kernels were showing up in my sweetcorn!

I have grown more dry beans than we could eat in the winter. It took awhile, finding varieties that we liked and that were productive. Kinda overdid it because we aren't that interested in eating all those beans . Soybeans are not grown commercially here. Trying a half dozen varieties, I found one that did okay and learned that I like edamame. Yeah . We also made tofu several times. Sure, we had to find some way to use up those dry soybeans ... there was waste from that to feed our backyard laying hens.

Dry peas ARE grown commercially about 80 miles south. I have entertained the idea of growing peas for that backyard flock. A neighbor to my big veggie garden wanted me to use what had been his 1/2 acre corral for blueberries. Nah. I did think about suggesting that we grow feed and keep a flock of laying hens there. Decided against that, also. The hens would have to be enclosed and the entire half acre used for that flock to produce enough saleable eggs to come anywhere close to matching the dollar signs $ $ I could see in his eyes when he talked to me about those blueberries! Nah.

The fact is that a laying hen requires a pretty darn good diet to lay all the eggs she is capable of. She needs about the same diet as a person ... a small person . That doesn't mean a family shouldn't have laying hens but I just bet that most people would be surprised about the quality of feed and the amount required. It's not a good idea to cut corners with egg layers.

Steve

I might also need to look into cover crops again. I learned online about intentionally using winter-killed cover crops, mow to finish off in spring as needed, make mini-furrows in the wide garden bed, and thus plant right along dead cover crop plant roots.
This might just work with my garden season.

So called weedless gardening may help. I can certainly try growing my own hay mulch for walking paths, and perhaps try a layer of tree leaves underneath the hay. I'm excited to try out more minimal soil disturbance. It never occurred to me that I was 'planting the weed seeds' whenever I helped to till the previous garden, where we used hay with seed heads before.

With extra space and effort, I can consider hedgerows. I may want to prevent a fuel ladder for potential fires with the layout and pruning though. I can integrate in apple trees. A downside is I want to avoid planting any poisonous plants for any livestock or pets that may be at risk though.

Respect the weeds. Plants that don't need any care are potential food sources. I remember seeing a documentary a long time ago. In the Korean war, the civilian population was displaced, they could not grow crops because the land was full of mines. People became wanderers and ate the weeds, grass, and bugs along the roadside, because it was all there was to eat.

Freezing brings up a problem I did not think of. I can preserve more food easier by freezing, but what happens when the power goes out. It is better to have food canned, or dried instead and stock up on shelf stable items.

You are right, in survival mode, calories count the most, balancing nutrition may take a back seat. Storing and saving seeds have to be on the survival checklist as well. You can't grow food without seeds or propagation material. Fertilizer will be a luxury. You would have to choose crops that can survive on fewer inputs or start beefing up that compost pile and recycling more. In many parts of the world, animal waste is the main source of nitrogen. Don't forget for those people with skills being able to hunt and fish helps too. Also having other methods of preservation such as drying racks to preserve food. People may not have access to power to run their fancy freeze dryers, dehydrators, or sealers.

I don't have a problem with heat, but where you have winters, you will need to consider alternative ways to stay warm.

It may still be hard to be totally self sufficient, but no man is an island. Communities have a better chance of survival than individuals. Having essential items for bartering comes in handy.

I don't have the space or skill to plant wheat or rice and the birds would eat it anyway.

However, I do have starch alternatives, taro, sweet potato, and legumes. Taro and sweet potato have the added advantage of being able to eat both the roots and the leaves. Beans can be dried for storage, and they are also a good source of vegetable protein. Potatoes won't work because they are not that easy to grow and they would be hard to store in my climate. Bananas are a good survival food in the tropics because they are calorically dense and they produce a lot when they are ready. But it is something you have to have in the ground 18-24 months in advance.

Getting access to clean water would also be a problem. I do have rain barrels but they are not potable and my water comes from the city.

While I like corn, it takes up a lot of space for the yield, so it would not really be a good plant and it is a heavy feeder as well. I would need to look for alternative food sources which take up less space and give a higher yield of nutrient dense foods.

Kale, Chard, and mustards would work, I can grow them and get multiple harvests from them. Much more nutrition and yield than I would get from lettuce or American spinach. Now, NZ spinach, I could get a lot of food value from that instead of regular spinach. NZ spinach and sweet potato leaves would be neck and neck in terms of food value.

Herbs add flavor, usually they don't take up a lot of space or require a lot of nutrients and they have medicinal uses as well.

It would help to beef up basic carpentry skills as well as learning how to make some essentials from scratch, as well as have some basic books on first aid and medicine.

I’m going to cross-post this here because it’s related —

applestar wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 07, 2023 2:04 am

Depending on degree of slope, you could just do wide raised rows with swales as paths — Permaculture, Natural Farming, etc.

I wonder if some of those videos I used to watch are still up on youtube — Emilia Hazelip, Ruth Stout, et. al.

Found Emilia Hazelip —

Emilia Hazelip - Synergistic Garden (95)



It’s interesting — even though this video was prominently titled “Permaculture”, Emilia Hazelip I don’t think was actually Permaculture — rather, some of Permaculture derived from HER methods, just as her methods were derived from Masanobu Fukuoka’s. (I’ll link the video nevertheless since it’s a better quality one with her speaking in English)

Permaculture and some of these others turned into a — you have to get training at certified workshops — kind of movement and I strayed away from them after a while, but I still utilize elements that seem to work for my postage stamp sized garden …. (I also “realized” some of those techniques are not going to be possible due to the small size — I think it’s like aquariums and ponds, compost piles, container gardening — there needs to be a certain volume for the natural biological activity and cycles to work effectively — in my garden, certain amounts of human -my-input/intervention become inevitable).

Haven’t looked at them in a while but we have some good discussions archived here—
(Natural Farming/Agriculture)One Straw Revolution - Masanobu Fukuoka - HelpfulGardener.com

Permaculture Forum - HelpfulGardener.com

Gardening techniques are really timeless.

In Japan, Natural Agriculture “movement” is apparently still continuing and I’ve been watching some dedicated folks posting videos about their methods and results. Recently, an elderly, gentle looking “master” was giving a talk and saying it takes 4-7 years before the land is sufficiently converted from conventional agricultural practices to achieve the conditions that no longer requires fertilizers and other inputs.

I watch this channel sometimes— he spends last part of his videos discussing his philosophy or just observations in general, so it’s a lot of talking (in Japanese) but it’s clear he really just plants by cutting into grass and weeds — sometimes started plants, sometimes just seeds. He doesn’t hesitate to expose the failures and difficulties he has encountered and discusses what has worked, what needs to be tried next year, etc.

“Natural Farming on an Island”
島の自然農園
https://youtube.com/@user-rx5wc1wy4w