What should master gardeners know

[imafan26]

Hi all. I am involved with a group of rebel master gardeners who want higher standards for master gardeners

One annual class of between 20-40 students of which
on average 10% will fail to complete the class due to personal or family emergencies or because they can't make the time for it
Of the remainder anywhere from 20-40% of the people will fail to do the promised 50 hours of payback time in a year. Anywhere from 10-20% will not even do one hour because they lie to get in the class and have no intention of doing the volunteer service.
Of what remains. Only a handful of those who complete the 50 hours and become certified will continue on another year. On average of a class of 40 only 5-8 will continue in the program. In 2015 of a class of 38 about half the class did not do one day of volunteer hours and only 2 stayed on. In 2016 there wasn't even a class. Not because there weren't enough interested people, but because the classes were going to be on the other side of the island and the instructors did not want to go that far. The students receive 18 weeks (3 hours on a Friday) of basic training. No gardening experience is required. The thrust of the class is to train master gardeners to provide unbiased research based information to the gardening public.

Our gripes
1. Low retention rates.
2. People lying to take the class with no intention of becoming master gardener volunteers. We do not offer classes to the public.
3. Quality of the Master gardeners that graduate
a) 2 interns were granted certification for cleaning up the file system. They never did anything else, no helpline, or other outreach.
b) The coordinator is not concerned that the students don't have any real gardening acumen. All they have to do is pass an open book test and be able to look up information
c) an intern once told me that when she was training on the helpline, the clients often asked for a second opinion because they did not believe what she told them. I was not there so I don't know what she told them. She completed her hours and got certified.
d) a certified MG, not an intern, who does plant doctor booths and helpline
1 purchased an indeterminate tomato seedling in a f 4 inch pot at one of the monthly plant sales. I asked her a couple
months later how it was doing and she said not too good. She still had it in the same 4 inch starter pot.
2 I spent a morning with a certified master gardener. Very sweet older lady. She told EVERY caller to bring in a
a sample. She processed and labeled samples that were brought in but NEVER looked at any of them and told the
client someone would get back to them.
When I asked her if she had any clue to what the problem was, she said she thought it was aphids, but wasn't sure
and did not ask more questions or look at the sample to confirm because she diagnosis NOTHING.

What we want
1. Better selection of candidates. If we are going to have people take this class for their own benefit they need to pay for it up
front. Since the purpose of this class is to recruit more MG's as we are understaffed and they plan to expand to yet
location. Get people in the class who understand what a MG does and has the time and wants to volunteer. For this we
asked the students to tour the facility so we could orient them and weed them out.
2. We want a program we can be proud of
Master gardeners should be confident, trust what they have learned. Research more if they have not.
Mentoring of interns to get them through their first year to build on what they have learned and gain confidence
Master gardeners give real gardeners a bad name when they don't know basic gardening. And they are supposed to
educate who now?
The program does not value gardening experience, but we want real gardening opportunities offered to the students. We
have demonstration gardens, bee, grafting, pruning/fruit, rose, bonsai, herb, xeriscape, composting, propagation, and idea gardens
which need helpers and they can learn from these focus groups

3. The class does not prepare the students to understand or be able to garden. They are only expected to look up answers.
However, they can't look up answers if they do not understand the problems of real gardeners.
We want students to know gardening basics. Completing hours doing "filing" and office work is apparently ok with the program. But we think to be certified they need core MG skills of listening, diagnosing, researching, and giving people an appropriate answer, confidently or if they can't figure it out to get help. But they need to not use a formula of asking everyone for a sample, never looking or making a diagnosis and leaving it for someone else to take care of. Interns also get credited hours for signing up and showing up for a plant doctor booth and can sit in the back not engaging the public.

4. Before interns are certified, they need to complete their hours but also be evaluated as to the quality of information they are providing. The certification hours should be quality hours direct contact with the public either by computer, phone, or in person.


This has been a real uphill battle for us. We have made some changes
They agreed to a small increase in tuition, but it is not enough to make a difference and still does not provide incentive to complete the volunteer hours. We wanted to charge $300 more and refund a portion after the intern completed their first year requirements
They did agree to extended mentoring phase after the classroom phase
They did not require a garden tour but offered it to the next class and all but two of them accepted. We think those two will probably not complete the year. We have weeded out 3 more candidates. One because although her enthusiasm is there, she does not have the time, another because of his attitude, and the third we have redirected to be a garden volunteer because he said he was more interested in doing actual gardening.

Some of us could listen in on the interview, although we have no part in the final decision. The coordinator justified the low rates by saying for 10 years they ask every candidate if they understand the purpose of the class is to train them to do outreach and that they are expected to do the 50 hours payback and they all said yes.. I am thinking in 10 years you haven't figured out yet that people lie and maybe you should be asking something else.

We are working on incorporating hands on gardening as part of the class time. We cannot require it and we cannot take it from class time but can offer a hands on activity related to the class topic after the classroom time.

We are trying to get the students involved in volunteering in the garden before the class actually starts. Some of them sign up months before the class begins. We have run into issues with garden orientation requirements that make it hard to get people involved early.

Are we asking too much that they be more selective in who they let in the class and expecting the "master gardeners" to know more than how to look things up or make referrals. Are we asking too much that "master gardeners" have basic gardening skills?

[Ksk]

I think the rebels should consider starting a new elite garden club. You have a sales problem. People abandon organizations when they don’t see value and don’t feel they belong or are not wanted. The group sounds very unwelcoming.

Gardening takes skill and you rebels sound like you are simply at a different level than the newbies. You are making judgements based upon your experience and ambitions and want all to be at your level and they are simply too limited at this point to be like you.

Talk to the extension officers and see if they can give you a different status so you can stay clear of the newbies. You seem to want validation and want the “master” in “Master Gardener.” So much of signing people up for volunteering involves “selling” the value to get them in, and offering goals and value to keep them in. You lose bad members your way but probably some good ones as well won’t deal with jumping through hoops intended to weed them out. Great people want comraderie not tests of loyalty.

I don’t see how you will find satisfaction based upon what you describe. MG is not a high status deal. It is there to give free work to the extension officers who are stretched too thin to deal with home gardeners. They are busy on the commercial side. There is a lot of grunt work so maybe you should ask for some grunt work as a prerequisite and get them to drop out faster, but then you may end up with 100% of no one!

Note: I noticed there was an issue with someone’s attitude. If they work hard learn to like them. You can’t measure an attitude. You rebels sound like a bit of a quality clique. Open your minds to new ways of selling what you believe and you will find good people if you welcome them. The more of those you find the better your organization will become overall. It takes patience.

Good luck

[thanrose]

Our modern culture, at least in the USA, is one of "everyone can do anything they want". After all, we can all be president one day, right? Something like 65% of drivers think they are above average in driving skills. Everyone feels they deserve more pay than they actually get, more benefits, more respect.

I like that upbeat point of view. Like the positive attitude.

I don't like that everyone thinks they are more expert in everything than the qualified experts.

For Master Gardeners, I'm guessing that some of the attrition is due to social anxiety or lack of reinforcement. People you thought would do well stop coming out or only want to shuffle paper perhaps because they don't have the confidence to step forward. Maybe if there was a conviviality accompanying the program with people encouraged to socialize before or after class or have special hours at a nursery or garden such as preferred shoppers or club members would have, they might be more invested in the program. Even an informal party of MGs once in a while might work for some people, or a plant exchange or bartering set up.

Most people are followers. They may like to think that they are self-assured, but they really need direction.

I'm a first responder. I'm not an extrovert, but can be authoritative when necessary. I'm willing to let someone else take the reins, but if no one does, I will step in and delegate, knowing that others will follow my orders just for something to do in an emergency. "Close those doors. You over there, get me some blankets. Get the others to stand back. What did 911 say?" Likewise, people may respond to directions like, "Tell her we need to see the bug. Ask about the growing conditions. What topical did he apply? You can look that up over there."

I've known MGs who were primarily interested in golf resort lawns, or in native plants, or in better tomatoes. That's okay, but newbies will be intimidated by someone who demands they must use BT when they've only just heard about it, or when a bossy caller insists that composting is against HOA regs. Maybe they need to understand that there are many ways to grow things and only some are bad. (DDT and asbestos fibers used in tree surgery?)

We don't like new jobs because we don't like not knowing what to do. Mentoring or being on call for advice would possibly help in that regard. Many of us are accustomed to there always being a higher accountability for someone else. The MGs need to see that they can in fact be the voice of authority, or a citation resource. Follow through on someone's problem. If you just say "Someone should call 911!" you can't be sure that someone did. You have to be specific. So, "I'll have to ask Tracy about your bog garden and get back to you."

A lot of things in nursing require you to show confidence in what you are doing even when you may not be so sure. We do it all the time in gardening, too. Like here, we can be "sure" someone has frost damage without knowing all the details. We can advise getting rid of contaminated soil even if it possibly could be amended. The new MGs need to know they won't have all the answers but they will likely have more than the person who is asking for advice.

[digitS']

One of the most important things that I appreciate about the garden forums is that it lifts my enthusiasm for the activity of gardening.

"Things." I can hardly tolerate that word and yet I use it all the time. Should those tasked as advisors "know more than how to look things up" - you ask. I learn by doing that. The thing may just be a mystery until I do ... or, until I organize my thoughts about it. It may only amount to a place holder, a thingamajig . I do the best I can until I do better.

I was just reading about stress. Sure, some of it is imagined. Think about those 65% of the drivers who believe themselves as above average. Some are taking on considerable stress by behaving as though they are, when they are not. Some of the 35% are actually average or above but feel the pressure of having to operate a vehicle around those with mostly imagined skill.

Imafan, you would like to see higher commitment and skills of the master gardeners. How does the program get there? It would likely take a systematic effort - upgrading materials and methods. And yes, I have sat in on meetings with an extension agent complaining to the supervisor that they are too often engaged in trivial matters to get to the more important parts of their jobs. Enter the master gardeners.

Many of us would be in over our heads if we spoke with too much assurance, diagnosing garden problems. I say this as someone once employed by farms and who must soon admit to 5 decades of gardening experience. My skills have been specialized by my location, by what was expected of me and by my own interests.

The MG program had better have some depth to the bench, human and informational resources to call on. The gardeners themselves should have that more generally but also, personally. They may be doing the best they can and have considerable knowledge to share and still, fully need that support. Having never been through a MG program may mean that I'm just talking through my hat here but I can imagine that structured interaction between the gardeners would be very helpful.

Steve

[KeyWee]

There are a lot of good points here, and in some cases you have answered your own questions. Being an 11-year MG, I have seen ALL of the problems described here.
Structure is key, and this includes a dedicated leader who is focused on the purpose of the MG program. We are lucky to have an awesome (and young!) hort agent who loves us and all that we do. Her guidance keeps all the the problems outlined here to an absolute minimum. If you can find someone like that, half the battle.
Structure also includes a screening, paying, volunteering schedule that we adhere to ~ we have a set of written by-laws (provided by the state, check your state MG program for help ~ most states have a MG website and/or FB page ~ look there for ideas). While we don't let the by-laws necessarily control us, we do refer to them for answers and quote them as needed so that the group does not lose focus. Yes, the MG program is for volunteers to provide community service, education, and support to the Extension staff.
It must be understood that the MG program is not for everyone. A love of gardening and helping others should be your touchstone. But there will still be duds. My graduating class started at 32 and we finished with 16. We are now up to about 24 and plan another class in 2018. Our classes here in Kentucky are intensive, led by experts in their fields. Plus we have yearly hours of CE, so that we stay educated and helpful.
Yes, again ~ some folks think that being a MG gives them a certain status, but nothing is further from the truth. The title surely does not indicate that we know everything, but we provide what assistance we can, and can always fall back on Extension publications for answers.
Most of all, we have fun. Our leader makes certain we don't lose sight of that.
And yes, I am one of the 35% of bad drivers, and I will be the first to say so.

[Gary350]

We have master gardener classes here in Murfreesboro TN, at the Ag Center same location as the farmers market 5 minute drive from my house. We have the same problem lots of people want to take classes but no one wants to do volunteer work. WHY would you want to make this harder than it already is?

I have been asked many times to teach master gardener classes, I REFUSE. Too many requirements and too much volunteer work plus I have to help out at the Farmers market every week. I am not allowed to teach a class about what I know from 40 years of gardening, I have to read from a book, a 10 year old child can read from a book. I will not teach a class every other Tuesday for 6 months during good camping weather. If I am not teaching a class they want me there helping with other things. I am not helping every week WE are retired WE go camping every week all summer we leave on Monday morning sometimes Tuesday morning. We are often gone 2 or 3 weeks.

I know someone that teaches master gardener classes that does not plant a garden, never has planted a garden, she reads from a book to the class. She is retired with nothing else to do, she has fun teaching classes. Why can't students in the class stay home and read their own book?

I can not sell my own garden vegetables at the farmers market until someone comes to inspect my garden to make sure it is organic and passes all their requirements. I don't want to sell vegetables at the farmers market anyway. I do not want to pay $15 to rent a table then waste my day selling $20 worth of vegetables. If I have too many vegetables I give them away free. We are retired I would rather go camping in the RV.

If I could teach a few classes I might be interested but I am not reading from a book. We all know what works for me in my garden & my soil, in my weather conditions may not work for you. Garden conditions I have now are different than the garden I had at the other house 7 miles across town.

[KeyWee]

I don't blame you at all for not wanting to teach a class or get involved in any way. Your comments just underline once again (for me) what a superb program we have in little ol' KY and I am beyond proud of our group. Let me stress again that there is something wrong with the leadership in all this. Our classes (not to brag, ahem) are FAR from reading out of a book, often interactive and hands-on, taught by folks from UK with degrees in their fields, and with huge passion for their topic. This passion really comes through in the imparting of their knowledge.
While I realize we have a great group, no question, it can't all be pure luck. Our MGs, both new and old, truly care about gardening and the community.
I am going to share this thread with them so that we make sure to continue NOT doing the things that would undermine our success.

[imafan26]

Well, that is a lot of our problem. The MG coordinator was promoted a couple of years ago to statewide coordinator, but that left a huge vacuum in leadership. So many people who actually care about the program and were putting in a lot of hours were frustrated when she said no to every suggestion and failed to address problems. Nearly all of us have experienced her failure to acknowledge or anwer emails, even multiple emails.

We only hear from her when she wants something. And the ones that stay and contribute do pick and choose to participate only in the areas that they actually enjoy doing.

This year the management decided to expand the program to another site which took additional resources from us. They decreased the helpline hours from 5 days a week to just one half day a week. This was her solution to not being able to staff it. She said the program was going to focus on plant doctor booths and computer emails and opening other helpline offices in other communities. Some people put in a lot of hours trying to mentor students on helpline and everyone pretty much agrees it is where the most learning occurs, it has just been gutted. It is the holidays now and the helpline usually tapers off with not a lot of gardeners asking questions. The students from the last class have also tapered off. At both sites now, the one day they are open is not fully staffed. In 2018 they are opening up another location. She is directing students to other areas away from the helplines, and has said the MG focus is now school gardens. Now, this was a surprise to most of us at the meeting. We had always thought the main focus was the home gardener and the main way to reach them has been the helpline. School gardens has always been one of many projects we have, and there aren't enough Mg's involved in that program either to meet all of the requests.

We don't consider ourselves elitists, but we do think that people who take the class should be screened to make sure it is what they expect it to be and that their motivations are for doing volunteering not just so they can have something on a resume, or to serve only their needs. The UH does not care that the students have any real knowledge of gardening, as long as they can ask people to bring in samples, and tell them someone will get back to them someday.

We want to make sure the students are not just thrown out in the world without mentoring, and that they give good information to the public, gain enough from the class and mentoring to be confident, communicate ideas well and actually give correct information. We think students should be evaluated and not just gain certification by just putting in easy hours. It is really easy to get hours at plant doctor booths, doing nothing and just showing up.

[RadRob]

I think you're expecting too much from someone who wants to learn more about gardening. I took the class in 90 with the intention of learning more about gardening, not just growing tomatoes in the back yard but learning about shrubs, flowers and trees. That should be the first intentions of the program, it helps people learn about gardening and if you make it a hassle then folks will just do what 99% of us do and google it. I think the course was a big help to me because back then there wasn't that much info online but now everything you need is just a click away. Maybe the whole programs needs to be revamped to today's needs.

I took the class at Norfolk Botanical Gardens in Norfolk Va while I was still on active duty in the Navy. It lasted about 3 months with classes twice a week for a few hours. I was surprised my Command let me attend the class during working hours and was grateful for that. Since it was during work hours that meant many people couldn't take the class so we had some people that worked for landscapers, nurseries and just retired people or mothers. With that said I can see where scheduling would be a problem for many people.

I thought the class was set up nice. We had different teachers for different topics and these weren't random people, they were subject matter experts on the class they taught. We even had a meteorologist from a local tv station give the class on weather. I know the instructors have to stick to the book for tests but it was more of a hands on type class, we learned the book but we spent time in different greenhouses learning hands on application. We even went to a local Rose breeders personal greenhouse where he gave a 2 hour class on breeding roses, grafting and starting seeds.

In the end, it was worth the time to take the class. That was too much information to retain all of it but the bigger points stuck with me through all that time. I still have my books and all the notes I took and refer to them sometimes but mostly now I just goggle it.

Maybe the MG course shouldn't be one class, break it down to a beginner class for basic gardening lessons and an advanced class for those that really want to were the badge of MG. That would certainly tell you what people are really interested in when the basic class fills and you have just a few in the advanced class.

My personal opinion, most MG's couldn't pass the test students take now without many hours of studying. If you really want to give the MG program some credibility then have all MG's pass an annual test. When people ask me about what an MG is my response is. You take a class and do volunteer work. That is as basic as it is in reality.

Merry Christmas Everyone!!!

[imafan26]

The master gardener classes are taught mostly by university profs and extension agents and it is a good basic background. However the master gardener class is supposed to be to train volunteers to assist the extension agents in answering research based plant questions and doing outreach on the helpline, plant doctor booths, teaching classes, and consulting or classes as requested by groups.

This class was not meant for the general public to learn about gardening. Many people take this class. On average 50% take the class because of what they want to get out of it with no intention of doing any volunteer time even though everyone agrees in the interview to giving back the 50 hours of volunteer time and are told that the class is meant to train volunteers to become master gardeners to answer gardening questions and is not open to the general public because of limited space. While there is always going to be some attrition our retention rate is about 10%, so the attrition rate is higher than the recruitment rate.

No doubt the class has a lot to offer and the fact that is on a weekday does make it hard for people who work. However, if they cannot make time for the class, then they surely won't have time to do the outreach. It would be better if there were separate classes for the public and for the MG's with a different fee schedule. This is what we proposed. It would also be better if the class was held more than once a year.

As far as retention goes, I totally agree with you. There has to be a personal benefit and reward for volunteering. These are not paid staff, they have to get something else out of it because its not a paycheck. The most active volunteers are involved in projects we call huis We have bees, xeriscape, sprouts (propagation), grafting, fruit trees, rose, bonsai, school gardens, herb garden, compost/worms. Many of the volunteers are involved in one or more groups on a regular basis. Some plant doctor booths do very well others struggle to even get one or two people to man the booth. We are even trying to arrange on the last day of class, an introduction to the hui groups and invite Mgs for a meet and greet. We have already said we need to plan more social time since most MG's really don't see one another much and we need to do some team building and get people to connect better and hopefully build on each others strengths.

We also said that the inactive MG's need to be reminded to put in their hours or they should be dropped to inactive status.

We also really need a leader who is committed and communicates regularly with MG's who are active in the program. Plan advance training opportunities and social get togethers and basically show up and show an interest in what the MG's are doing.

[applestar]

I’ve been reading this thread with some interest. I can see the difficulty involved and really feel the frustration in carrying on the program that imafan has expressed. I wonder how many other states are experiencing the same or similar issues? I suspect NJ is as well to some extent. I had heard that there had been some cut-backs due to budget re-allocations a few years back.

There is nothing more frustrating than being part of an organization in which the leaders and management do not support the needs of the group or hear the solutions raised by the people who do the work. Back in the 80‘s I was working for a company who adopted “Quality Circles” as a way to improve employee moral (and I suppose actually make some improvements). They did hold a few award ceremonies for some of the suggestions, but all in all, it was mostly pomp and many great suggestions went unheeded. I think the concept failed when the company realized they couldn’t meet the high expectations of the participating employees.

I considered becoming a Master Gardener years ago, but as soon as I read the syllabus for the course, and understood I was supposed to KNOW the material so I could EXPLAIN them to others, I knew I couldn’t do it, because a significant part of material had to do with using chemicals and other practices that I don’t use in my garden. (I think rainbowgardener mentioned that, too?)

It’s probably correct that there are a lot of great resources on-line now. It’s also true that some of them are really, REALLY not. But how are new gardeners to know or tell the difference? There is also the bottom-line fact that what works for some does not work for others. I always try to express in terms of “this is how I do it” or “this way has worked for me” rather than “this is THE WAY to do it”.

I suppose the funding for this organization as well as the material resources and existing gardens are specifically linked to the state Ag program and master gardener program? It sounds like you do have a great core group of dedicated people. What is that expression? —a wagon tied to a dying horse or something— I wonder what are the alternatives to breathing new life into the program? Start a new/different one? Would anyone else private or public be interested in funding such a project... Hm do you still need the aegis of being connected to the university for such an organization to be credible?

[Gary350]

When I was in college I had 2 classes where we learned about, soil, nutrient, minerals, fertilizer, what plants need, what soil needs, types of soil, how to unlock nutrients in the soil, plant disease, bugs, animals, everything related to growing plants, all types of plants including trees and other things. This is all general knowledge that tells a person how to create the perfect soil for perfect growing conditions in perfect weather. This is the type of generic information all new gardeners should know but there is nothing here to help new gardeners with growing conditions and problems at their geographical location. We all must learn for our self when first and last frost is at our geographical location. We need to learn now to control, grass, weeds, bugs, , animals, disease. There are many other things we all need to learn for our own area, our garden, our soil, our plants, our weather. I have seen someone of the information that is read to new students it is basically the general knowledge of growing plants but nothing related to problems at your geographical location.

It seems to me the attitude of the Master Gardener programs is, new students should want the notoriety & fame of being in the spot light of becoming a Master Gardener.

I think the master gardener program would work much better if new students paid a fee to take the classes. Money could be use to attract & pay teachers. This will attract a lot more new students and a certain percentage of the students may want to continue on to become teachers and volunteers.

Existing gardeners in each geographical location should be valued for what they have learned and know about planting a garden in the existing soil and weather conditions.

I once read somewhere that about 1% of the population grows a garden these days compared to 90% that grew a garden 70 years ago.

[KeyWee]

The very last thing our MG program here in Kentucky focuses on is any kind of fame for what we do. In fact, it is frankly discouraged. We are not allowed to use the "title" to promote ourselves in any way.
And yes Gary, you are right ~ a fee is very important because it tends to weed out (haha) those who are not really serious about becoming a VOLUNTEER for the local extension and the community.
Coming away from last night's meeting, I am thankful for how very fortunate we are with the group we have. We interact, assist, work hard, and have FUN, all for the good of the community. We are always thinking of ways we can locally educate, inform, and get more than that 1% back to gardening. Our Ag-agent support in all of this is top notch, and if you don't have that, you are SOL!

[Gary350]

The very last thing our MG program here in Kentucky focuses on is any kind of fame for what we do.

I am not talking about MG program promoting Fame. Some people take the MG program then brag about it.

[xtron]

my dad was a M.G. one of the reasons I am hesitant to take the course is because of all the things it teaches that I could care less about. I am not interested in bonsi, or any kind of flowers. my interest in trees is limited to fruit trees, how to prune and how to care for them.
what I an interested in is vegetable gardening and how to maximize output from the very limited space I have, and how to deal with the bugs and blights of each type of veggie, either chemically, or naturally.
I think a lot of the washouts/fail to follow up problem is because of people like me. come and get what you want, then drop out or walk away.

if the M.G. course was broken down into "blocks" that were independent, but interrelated, each building on one or more previous blocks, it might be much more successful. that way someone like me who has no interest in flowers and the pests that damage them isn't expected, or required, to sit thru the block, effectively wasting my money and the instructors time.

common blocks like soil and nutrients ect would be required to get a certificate.

certificates would reflect the area(s) of expertise like M.G. Flowers/bonsi or M.G. Fruit trees, M.G. Vegetables