Does it make anyone else kind of sad?

[Dixana]

With spring either here or on it's way (depending where you are) there's a lot of new gardeners starting their first plots.
It excites me to hear of more people taking up this lovely hobby! But then the questions start.....
We all know how I despise MG and their products, nasty insecticide, etc but everytime I turn around someone is using them, asking about them, or buying them.
I spent a day last week with a new friend making paper pots for up potting. It's her first year having a veggie garden and I LOVE knowing the answer to so many of her questions (or where to find the answer ). She asked about fertilizer and out came the soapbox. Thankfully, she has a young son, another on the way, lives on a lake, and loves wildlife so she appreciated the new found knowledge of the evils of Scotts and Monsanto. BUT not everyone is like her.
So, how do you other "natural" gardeners deal with the questions and the "Oh noes I covered my edibles in Seven now what" type stuff?
It makes me sad and a little crazy that a whole new generation of gardeners is watching the commercials and going out and buying MG by the truckload

[Charlie MV]

Dixana, when I started gardening I found a web sight. Peer pressure from people I never have met and never will made me a mostly organic gardener.

So I blame people like you at THG who take the time to spread the word for teaching me that feeding the soil is the better way to go. I confess that I still hit a few tough spots with Roundup but they are all far away from my garden. They are all spots where vinegar has proven useless and where I have used a couple of bottles a season in the past, the bottle I have now is 4 years old and half full.

But to your question, I spend some time knocking heads over politics in my local paper's comment boards. Occasionally I mention that I garden organically. Even my ideological opposites have ended up asking me questions about gardening. I answer what I can and when possible let them know about THG in a private message.

Again, even from people who appear not to like me at all, I've gotten notes back that said they lurk here, some even from the drill baby drill crowd. Without fail they compliment the sight even if they only lurk. Management here has aggravated me by locking down threads that got too political but they are right. You get more flies with honey.

Believe me, whether you realize it or not, you are doing more to promote healthy gardening practices than you know. But if you want to do more, go argue politics in the newspaper and occasionally mention your garden. You'll be surprised. Even ideological numbskulls like to eat.

[petalfuzz]

People who use MG or other chemical fertilizers don't bother me as much as people spraying their lawns with all sorts of stuff 3 seasons out of the year. That and the insecticides.

But when you get bit by the 'organic' bug, and read a lot, especially about pollution in the ground water, etc. It's enough to tear my hair out. That's why I try not to think about it...

[KennyCouch]

My dad is a hardcore chemical user and I've been trying for a while to show him the err of his ways. I've never been able to get through to him.

This spring I went to visit and all his new stuff was organic, I was confused more than anything. He switched over because he notice less and less lizrds each year. My dad is stubborn and would never go organic for himself, but put the little creatures in the mix and his heart turned.

[Susan W]

Rather than start new thread, thought appropriate here.
Was at H D today getting a mess of top soil, a couple bags of cow poo, and just a couple herb pots. I am learning to ask somewhere to ask for loader with cart. I can play my age when needed!
The young lady who took my request down, and I had pd, and she's loading in my car. I noticed your getting all this evergreen (brand, cheap), not MG. In conversation, she is trying to figure this out, bless her heart as we say here. I don't know if she is doing flowers, herbs, veg, but she is hot on doing good. Her grannie told her she had to work in some poo.
I gave her a hand-out for my fledge biz (Midtown Herbs) and if she calls/e-mails I won't charge of course, just be a booster. (she asked for contact). I was on the selling end for several years at garden centers so have some base on that.

Thanks for letting me share.

[GardenNut101]

I subscribe to the Soil Association - do you have it in the USA? When I've read of the devastation Monsanto products cause - I can't believe our governments allow them to continue. They must have a very poweful lobbying machine.

[stella1751]

I think it's important to look at both sides of the issue, to walk in the shoes of the opposition to fully understand his or her position. Without a recognition of why someone believes as he or she does, bias rears its ugly head, sitting high on the shoulders of intolerance.

Arguments in favor of chemical use follow:

1. Saving the Plant. If a plant's health is at risk and chemicals are the only answer, why throw out the baby with the bathwater? I would imagine that many of the heirlooms we grow are with us today because of chemicals. It strikes me as unreasonable to lose a cherished plant over principle.

2. Rolling with the Punches. We live in an age where the use of chemicals has resulted in super weeds and super pests, GMO's are furtively making their presence felt, and environmental changes are posing new challenges for plants. Sometimes Grandma's and Grandpa's old-time remedies are insufficient to battle the new threats to our plants. Again, do we let the plant die so we might hold our heads high?

3. A Matter of Priorities. Life is a series of trade offs. We can reduce our carbon footprint, but eliminating it is impossible. Monsanto is one of only thousands of corporations responsible for the destruction of the planet. At a time when dolphins and turtles are washing up on the sandy beaches of the Gulf of Mexico and fingers are pointing at off-shore drilling, I take particular pride in the fact that I drive my car an average of 10 miles a month. I feel no shame in purchasing a bag or two a year of Miracle Gro, especially if doing so keeps my seedlings healthy and thriving.

4. Intolerance Is a Buzz-Kill. Someone mentioned in another thread that it is odd how many of the old-timers have left this forum. I thought about it, and that person was right. They are still gardening; I see their names appearing regularly in other garden forums. Last year, a familiar joke in this forum was the cry, "Duck!" Members used this warning when someone mentioned he or she used chemicals, Monsanto products, or peat moss. Others used it when the unwary mentioned a dislike of spiders or other beneficial but nevertheless unsavory garden critters. Gardeners like to discuss their trials and successes, but like any other hobbyists, they hate having perceived failings pointed out to them. They will look elsewhere for gardening society, seeking a haven where they can be free to be themselves.

5. Fanaticism Can Be Frightening. Hitler and his goons believed their way was the only way. They were fanatics in their desire to create a new world order, and 6,000,000 innocent people died in this pursuit of an ideology. Those who dared to disagree with their philosophy were also killed. This is an extreme analogy, but it should serve as a timely reminder to those who enjoy this forum enough to want it to continue in operation for years to come. Look at all the postings in the introduction thread. Then count the members who have posted in the last 30 days. Not only do old members leave, but also do new members disappear. The joy of sharing a mutual love pales beside the fear of being labeled a wrong-thinker. Even more frightening is THG's future as a forum with all right thinkers: Yes, I agree. Yes, I agree. Yes, I agree. That's not discussion; that's just plain goose-stepping.

My name is Stella1751, and I am a wrong-thinker. I take pride in being an organic gardener, but I will not let a plant die to feed that pride, nor will I deny a plant every opportunity to thrive. Most importantly, I am an organic gardener/occasional chemical user/ admitted spider bigot who enjoys a good discussion, no matter how heated, so long as it doesn't end with "Duck!" Discussions that consist of the same dozen members seconding one another's opinion frustrate and frighten me.

Little can be gained intellectually when everyone in a social grouping agrees and merely parrots the other individuals. Receptivity to another's stance suffocates bias and intolerance.

[SPierce]

I was new, once, but I did my homework first. When I freaked out over some bugs eating my plant leaves, I ran out and bought some Sevin--but after seeing a topic about how horrible it was here, it sits unused on top of my fridge, never to seen the light of day again.

Have faith, there are those that will always depend on chemicals to get everything in their garden perfect-- but there are just as many that will refrain from using them!

PLus, i learned last year from experience that MG soil really isn't all that great and they didn't make a huge difference in terms of growth. In fact, my in MG soil plants did worse while my non-mg soil ones did better. I'm using a different soil now, and adding in compost- though I will admit the MG base from last year is there. I can't just take all of the dirt out of the garden boxes.

[stella1751]

I was new, once, but I did my homework first. When I freaked out over some bugs eating my plant leaves, I ran out and bought some Sevin--but after seeing a topic about how horrible it was here, it sits unused on top of my fridge, never to seen the light of day again.

Have faith, there are those that will always depend on chemicals to get everything in their garden perfect-- but there are just as many that will refrain from using them!

PLus, i learned last year from experience that MG soil really isn't all that great and they didn't make a huge difference in terms of growth. In fact, my in MG soil plants did worse while my non-mg soil ones did better. I'm using a different soil now, and adding in compost- though I will admit the MG base from last year is there. I can't just take all of the dirt out of the garden boxes.

I rest my case

[farmerlon]

... I would imagine that many of the heirlooms we grow are with us today because of chemicals. ...

Respectfully, I must say that I don't like the sound of that.
That just doesn't seem right to me.

In my own personal experience, I have never seen a chemical pesticide or fertilizer "solve" or "cure" anything in the garden. At best, I think they may function as a palliative, masking the underlying cause of a problem.

Is there an example of a situation where a chemical actually saved an heirloom plant from extinction, by rescuing the plant from some pest or disease that could not be controlled by improved cultural practices or "natural organic" means? I doubt it, but I would certainly be open to hear about it.

[farmerlon]

...So, how do you other "natural" gardeners deal with the questions and the "Oh noes I covered my edibles in Seven now what" type stuff? ...

Whenever I can, I just let someone taste a sampling of my fresh organic/natural produce... that's usually all it takes to make a convert!

[DoubleDogFarm]

Moderators need to take some of the blame. Helpful Gardener has strict rules and one can not stray. If everyone enters the same funnel, we can not help but reach a similar conclusion.

Stella1751,

I still haven't figured you out. When I was new here I too was at the receiving end of your wrath. One might look in the mirror and ask the question. Where have the members gone?



Eric

[farmerlon]

...It makes me sad and a little crazy that a whole new generation of gardeners is watching the commercials ...

I suppose it's the job of the "pitch men" to try to sell us their products, whether we need them or not.

I hope I'm not going too far off-track here, but it makes me sad that it seems, almost weekly, I hear of another friend or family member that is diagnosed with cancer.

I can't say that I know the answers... but I can't help but feel that the disconnect most people have from their food (and nature) is the root cause of many health issues.
Processed foods, plastic packaging, chemical fertilizers, chemical pesticides, animal confinement feeding and stress, overuse of drugs and antibiotics, and on & on ... are we creating our own demise by producing more and more foods of quantity without quality?

[stella1751]

Moderators need to take some of the blame. Helpful Gardener has strict rules and one can not stray. If everyone enters the same funnel, we can not help but reach a similar conclusion.

Stella1751,

I still haven't figured you out. When I was new here I too was at the receiving end of your wrath. One might look in the mirror and ask the question. Where have the members gone?



Eric

DDG,

That you see wrath where I see a spirited discussion is likely responsible for your confusion Address the issue, please, not the character of the rhetor (Logical Fallacy 101). Have some fun with it. It might not be what you are accustomed to, but it grows on people who like a challenge. (I'm still thinking about a response to Farmerlon's logical rebuttal.)

BTW, I've noticed that you have quit ridiculing people who ask questions you think are stupid. That in itself makes for a considerably more pleasant forum experience. Thank you!

[Charlie MV]

Stella, you've lost me too. It's not difficult to do but you've lost me.

In internet forums, people come and go. The forum content usually has nothing to do with it. I disappeared for months several times to take care of and ultimately bury a couple of elderly parents. parents. I'm not sure that new or old members have gone away because of the forum. I suspect it's more a matter of life's ebb and flow.


Edit, It's also possible that the challenge went away for some. I must admit that when I first joined, many answers I got from some very knowledgeable people went right over my head.

I participated in a weight lifting and fitness forum for about 8 years. I finally left because I got tired of giving the same answers over and over. Diet and fitness are a way of life. There are no shortcuts. I hung in for 8 years and burnt out.

I'm also a former licensed master. That's a boat captain for the lubbers. I left my boating forum mainly because of burnout and time constraints. I also dropped my masters license because I feel there laws are unreasonable as far as pleasure boaters are concerned. My issue is this. In the boating regulations, the first regulation you see is to avoid collisions.

As a licensed master, if I am anchored at night, asleep and in compliance with all regulations from where and how I anchor as well as proper lighting and I get hit by a drunk, maritime law places some liability on me simply because I carry my 100,000 ton ticket. So I dropped it. But I don't go to boating sights now because I'm tired of answering the same questions.

I am satisfied that there are very qualified people at THG to answer my questions and I'm glad they take the time. But I bet some of the older timers have just burnt out, gotten busier or moved to a sight that better fits their needs.