It's all Rainbow's fault. Double Dog Farm slideshow

[DoubleDogFarm]

This will take 8:10 of your time. You will never get back. I hope the audio works.

Double Dog Farm slideshow


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMbYAQPccMs


Eric

[rainbowgardener]

Glad to have been an inspiration! Very nice! Audio works very well -- Joe MacDonald song....

[applestar]

Looks great, Eric!

[shadowsmom]

I used to raise rabbits for 4H when I was a kid.....your bunnies are too cute. Can I come over and visit?

Great video!

[DoubleDogFarm]

Thank you.

I rushed it together, it takes time searching through 700 pictures. There are better pictures.

Music was supplied by Youtube. Tried to find one, close to the same length, as the slideshow.

your bunnies are too cute. Can I come over and visit?

as long as you bring the cwoffee.


Eric

[shadowsmom]

as long as you bring the cwoffee.

Eric

I'll bring cwoffee and pumpkin bread.

Seriously, I tried to talk DD into raising rabbits for 4H. She chose sheep. Not nearly as cute and easy to transport. We thinned the herd down when she left for college and only kept 3 ewes that were her favorites. I was thinking this morning as I fed/watered them that rabbits really would have been more pleasant.

[applestar]

Do you shear and use their wool? (sorry Eric -- but I gotta know! )
In one of my day-dream moments, I thought it would be interesting to raise Alpacas.... I've thought about raising Angora rabbits, but I was never able to wear Angora sweater -- too sneezy -- so I think I might be allergic to them. (THERE! We're back to rabbits, which is sort of back on topic... )

[shadowsmom]

Do you shear and use their wool? (sorry Eric -- but I gotta know! )
In one of my day-dream moments, I thought it would be interesting to raise Alpacas.... I've thought about raising Angora rabbits, but I was never able to wear Angora sweater -- too sneezy -- so I think I might be allergic to them. (THERE! We're back to rabbits, which is sort of back on topic... )

We had Joel the sheep shearer come in the spring to give them a good clipping. DD (and I helped) touched them up in between his visits.

You may not like this part - we raised Cheviots for their meat, not their wool. If you raise sheep for their wool there is a lot you have to do to protect the wool's integrity. If anyone wanted wool from our sheep we just gave it to them.

Back to rabbits I used to bring my extra rabbits to the auction market. I think most of them were bought by restaurants.

[DoubleDogFarm]

I'll bring cwoffee and pumpkin bread

Mmmm... Pumpkin bread

Sure wait until daughter heads off to college, then fill the freezer.

I don't remember eating lamb while growing up. My mother told a story about cooking mutton, that turned her off to lamb. I like lamb and rabbit is better young also.

Apple,

On topic, off topic, on topic, I don't mind.

Eric

[shadowsmom]

Sure wait until daughter heads off to college, then fill the freezer.

I don't remember eating lamb while growing up. My mother told a storing about cooking mutton, that turned her off to lamb. I like lamb and rabbit is better young also.

You really do have to eat lamb while it is still young. There is a huge difference in the taste/smell of store bought lamb and small farm raised. Once you've had the good stuff you'll never eat store bought again unless you can find a butcher that does get young lamb.

When daughter left for college it was time to thin down the freezer. When her three older brothers were home we bartered a lot of lamb for beef and pork, and kept several lambs each year for our freezer. Hubby and I just don't eat enough to keep it up.

We sold several of her ewes to people who wanted fresh stock, sold the ram to a neighbor (who curses us to this day), and the older ewes went to the auction house. If we wanted some lambs we could borrow *our* ram but I'm afraid the neighbor wouldn't take him back.

[applestar]

You got me, Shadowsmom. I fully recognize myself as an hypocrite when I say I can eat fish I caught but that's about the extent of it. I haven't tried but I don't think I could eat an animal I raised, especially from a young age. I eat store-bought meat while being cognisant of what they were and what happened to them to be packaged that way.

I tend to eat a lot of meat -- more than the recommended dietary portion. I tried not eating meat, but I couldn't get over my body's need/craving for meat. It might have been bad timing, but I developed an allergy to most legumes when I tried.

I think I told this story once before --

One of the ways my DH and I hit it off while dating was that we liked to try exotic foods. We used to order the most unusual items on the menu: ostrich, rattlesnake, alligator, frog's legs... I already like uni, but I gave him props for trying it... that sort of thing. So one day, we went to an expensive restaurant and ordered three kinds of smoked fish and quail for appetizer, and DH ordered some other kind of wild game bird for the main course and I ordered the rabbit. We were seated at a romantic table by a large window overlooking the moonlit snow-covered garden -- It was perfect.

When the main entrees arrived and we were about to tuck in, I glanced out the window to enjoy the view, and there was a rabbit, sitting up on a snowmound right outside the window, all backlit by the moon, apparently staring in my direction. I whispered, "There's a bunny rabbit outside the window...." I knew as soon as I said it, that I was NOT going to be able to eat his "cousin" on my plate. He started on his game bird, but noticed I wasn't eating. He said, "Is the rabbit still there?" and I hissed in agony, "Yes!" "Do you want to trade?"

So we traded plates, and I was able to start eating. Then I noticed HE wasn't eating. "The bunny's still out there...."

[rainbowgardener]

Yup! I am not a vegetarian because I believe it is wrong to kill animals... I think that is part of nature and we were evolved to be omnivores. However, personally I couldn't do it, and I am not willing to pay someone to have to do something all day that I cannot do myself. Slaughterhouse worker is a very dehumanizing job.

(There's lots of other reasons to be vegetarian too, living lower on the food chain, pesticides concentrate up the food chain, takes 10 pounds of vegetable protein to produce one pound of animal protein, and thus it takes a bunch of water and petroleum to produce that animal protein, rainforests being cleared to produce beef, etc etc).

However, I think all of us are to some degree or other in this modern industrial society "hypocrites." I am not vegan, I eat some cheese and other dairy, so there are animals being maintained somewhere for me too and I'm sure they end up slaughtered eventually too. I also eat some winter bananas that are likely shipped from Central or South America, and who knows what conditions the workers that grow/ harvest them are in, etc... We all have to figure out where to draw those lines and just live by our principles the best we can.

If I someday could have a little organic /permaculture farm (and by little, I'm thinking 3-5 acres) I'd have some fish and chickens, use the wastes in my garden and the garden to feed the animals. If I could bring myself to kill them, I think I'd be ok with eating my own organically grown, self-killed fish and chicken. But that is all theoretical.

Before anyone eats anything again, they should read Omnivore's Dilemma by Michael Pollan, where he traces where our food comes from, how it is produced, how it gets from there to our tables, etc.

[shadowsmom]

You got me, Shadowsmom. I fully recognize myself as an hypocrite when I say I can eat fish I caught but that's about the extent of it. I haven't tried but I don't think I could eat an animal I raised, especially from a young age. I eat store-bought meat while being cognisant of what they were and what happened to them to be packaged that way.

Applestar, I think a lot of it depends on how you were raised. When I was a child it was very common to raise chickens for eggs and meat, own a cow, etc. All my kids grew up knowing the difference between the family pets and animals raised for other reasons - like the sheep. My daughter did become attached to the three ewes we kept, due to unusual circumstances, and that was fine. It happens. She didn't have a problem selling the lambs for Easter because that was the reason the ewes were bred.

[BewilderedGreenyO.o]

Just try watching movies (I can't exactly think of the name atm) that actually show you everything that goes on to the animals before their remains end up in our grocery stores. Its absolutely horrible. They had us watch it in our nutrition class at one point and I'll never look at meat the same way ever again. The abuse those animals are forced to endure before hand is just down right despicable. Don't get me wrong though.. yes I "will" eat it but I'll dread every moment of it thinking of what the animals had to go through. "Dehumanizing" a word that I feel suits this situation very well. I may be a bit too sympathetic but really .. to think these animals don't feel pain and to treat them the way I've seen them be treated is just absolutely shocking of the human race, but hey, people murder each other, even their own families (fricken psychos)... then again... I couldn't help but "save" lol the fricken fly that was trying to drown itself in some dirty dish water this morning. (My biggest fear is drowning and managed to sympathized with the darn insect lol ) Go figure I must just be to tenderhearted

[rainbowgardener]

I don't judge anyone for not being vegetarian; I live with a non-veggie. But if you feel like that why eat it?

[BewilderedGreenyO.o]

its healthy to eat it.. simple as that. The body craves it and its just something we need, I'm in medical school and its proven to be unhealthy to live life as a vegetarian though I know many people who are and admire them for the strength and will power they have. I'd just accept it more if it were done humanely.. but I guess the demand for meat in the world is just to much for people to take a little extra care for it to be humane..just sad to think of little chicks being delivered by bundles on convayer belts in factories, tagged and tossed around into and out of boxes as if they weren't even a living creature. Thats only the start of it, there are worst things people just aren't being educated about that is really going on out there.

And just to clarify.. I am not judging anyone, I am simply stating my opinion and expressing the facts. With that said I hope that none of what I am expressing is offensive to anyone here. If it is I truly am sorry it wasn't intended. Just understand that the flip side of the topic could be offensive to others as well.

[applestar]

Way, OT, but this is turning into an interesting discussion, so I hope it's OK to keep going.

There's a book called Eat Right 4 Your Type in which the author expounds on a theory -- based on observation, I believe -- that your blood type is an indicator of human civilization society stage -- nomadic, hunter/gatherer, agricultural, etc. -- that your body has dietary affinity for. I think it's also supposed to be related to your ancestry. I read it with interest, but unfortunately, my blood type as well as my ancestry and what I'm supposed to be healthiest eating didn't match what I find feeling at best eating.

Accuracy of the book aside, it got me thinking that diet is not an universal formula that applies to everyone, despite all the hoopla. Some people are simply healthier eating more animal protein, and some people are perfectly healthy eating only vegetables. People who struggle to keep to a specific dietary formula are probably not really meeting their bodys' needs. I think individual needs vary even among the closest family members.

[DoubleDogFarm]

WOW! We are here again.

Way, OT, but this is turning into an interesting discussion, so I hope it's OK to keep going.

Who am I to say, your the Mod.

I was just posting a simple slideshow.

On the OT.

We have free will.
Livestock can be raised in many ways.
Livestock can be processed in many ways
Environment has affect on health also.

Keep it going. Very interesting.

Eric

[DoubleDogFarm]

What an idiot. I needed to hit the save changes button.


Eric

[applestar]

Well, I think it's courtesy to keep to the OP's topic. When I initiate a topic and the discussion wanders off, I'll post indicating I want it back on course if it's important to me, but I also enjoy "organic" evolving discussions that somehow my original thread germinated.

As a mod, I split off posts that obviously diverge from the OP and are likely to invite replies that are not consistent with the Thread, especially if the OP asked a question. Also, often the divergent post is made by some one new to forums, and didn't know to start his/her own --and that they're more likely to receive satisfactory replies by initiating their own thread.

[rainbowgardener]

BG.O.o Can you give any references or citations when you say "it is proven to be unhealthy to live as a vegetarian" ? I know of no such proof. I am in my 60's, have been a vegetarian almost all my adult life and I am one of the healthiest people I know, never get sick, hardly any aches and pains... I have known vegetarians in their 90's going strong. I understand that is anecdotal not proof, but it is clear being veggie doesn't kill you.

It is true that it requires a bit more thought and effort to be a healthy vegetarian, which to me is not a bad thing. I think we all should be putting a little more thought and effort into what we eat. Vitamin B-12 comes from meat, so I take a B vitamin supplement. You have to be a little more thoughtful about where your protein comes from, especially lean protein. I do eat some (limited amounts) eggs and dairy and these days stores are full of non-fat dairy products (wasn't so when I started). Tofu is good healthy lean protein.

Vegetarians have fewer heart attacks because they eat way less saturated fats and in general eat lots more fruits and veggies than the typical American diet. This is because fruits and vegetables contain folic acid, carotenoids, dietary fiber, potassium, flavonoids, magnesium, phytosterols, and other polyphenolic antioxidants that have vegetarian health benefits. "Amount you reduce risk of heart attack if you reduce consumption by 50 percent: 45 percent
Amount you reduce risk if you eliminate meat, dairy and eggs from your diet: 90 percent" https://www.consumercide.com/js/index.php/food-supply/39-necessarily-vegetarian/379-how-to-win-an-argument-with-a-meat-eater.html

A vegetarian diet tends to be very high in flavanoids and anti-oxidants and low in salt thus reducing blood pressure -- vegetarians have lower blood pressure compared to those who eat meat, especially red meat.

"Hypertension and blood pressure among meat eaters, fish eaters, vegetarians and vegans in EPIC-Oxford. [this was a large long term study of effects of different diets including 11,000 subjects] RESULTS: The age-adjusted prevalence of self-reported hypertension was significantly different between the four diet groups, ranging from 15.0% in male meat eaters to 5.8% in male vegans, and from 12.1% in female meat eaters to 7.7% in female vegans, with fish eaters and vegetarians having similar and intermediate prevalences. Mean systolic and diastolic blood pressures were significantly different between the four diet groups, with meat eaters having the highest values and vegans the lowest values" https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12372158

They did note that much (but not all of the difference) was attributable to the fact that vegetarians and vegans tended not to be obese or significantly overweight.

A vegetarian diet is often prescribed for diabetics, being very high in the kind of complex carbohydrates that don't break down very fast and so don't lead to insulin surges.

A vegetarian diet tends to be anti-carcinogenic. "Almost all cancers, especially epithelial cancers, can be prevented with regular consumption of fruits and vegetables. Foods such as cruciferous vegetables, herbs and fruits have cancer-protective phytochemicals such as flavonoids, carotenoids, ellagic acid, sulfide compounds, isoflavones, isothiocyanates glucarates, phenolic acids, phthalides, phytosterols, saponins and terpenoids among others. " https://www.benefitsofvegetarianism.com/vegetarian-health-benefits.html

"Increased risk of breast cancer for women who eat meat daily compared to less than once a week: 3 times
For women who eat eggs daily compared to once a week: 2: 8 times
For women who eat butter and cheese 2-4 times a week: 3: 25 times
Increased risk of fatal ovarian cancer for women who eat eggs 3 or more times a week vs less than once a week: 3 times
Increased risk of fatal prostate cancer for men who consume meat, cheese, eggs and milk daily vs sparingly or not at all: 3.6 times"
https://www.consumercide.com/js/index.php/food-supply/39-necessarily-vegetarian/379-how-to-win-an-argument-with-a-meat-eater.html

Meat and processed foods have lots of toxins. Pesticides concentrate up the food chain. The pesticides that are in industrially produced agricultural products are retained in the body of the animal who eats them. Since it takes up to 10 pounds of vegetable protein to produce one pound of animal protein, the pesticide levels are 10 times higher. And we won't even talk about all the antibiotics, growth hormones, etc that are given to industrially produced meat animals, since as DDF points out, it is possible to produce meat in other ways -- but certainly meat eaters should be at least as careful as vegetarians. I always see on TV the things about clean all your cutting boards thoroughly after they have had raw meat on them, because of the diseases and parasites and am glad I don't have to worry about that.

Meat is harder to digest and tends to stress the digestive system. I see all the ads all the time for all the heartburn and other digestive system remedies. I have no idea what heartburn feels like and have never needed any of those products.

"In a 1997 position paper on vegetarian diets, the American Dietetic Association conclude that, compared to non-vegetarians, vegetarians experience:

...· Lower blood cholesterol levels
...· Lower death rates from heart disease
...· Lower rates of high blood pressure
...· Lower rates of type-2 diabetes
...· Lower rates of certain types of cancer
...· Lower obesity rates"
https://bahiabeachenterprises.com/BB010-VN-010-050.htm

This article cites lots of studies and includes this:

One study by Dr. Dean Ornish and his colleagues showed alarming results when it revealed that a low-fat vegetarian diet (about 10% calories from fat), when combined with other lifestyle changes such as non-smoking, stress management, and moderate exercise actually reversed the progression of coronary artery disease without the use of drugs (10).

Now can you show us ANY evidence for your statement that vegetarian diet is less healthy?

[DoubleDogFarm]

Apple,

Yes and Thank you

Rainbow,

I have my hands over my eyes, over my ears and over my mouth. Very useful and scary information.

If you really want to turn your stomach, watch some of the slaughter house videos.

Eric

[rainbowgardener]

Incidentally, recently had my annual check up with my MD. In my 60's, never been on any blood pressure meds and my blood pressure reading was 105/60. Any of you meat eaters match that?

[rainbowgardener]

https://www.latimes.com/news/science/la-he-meat-contamination-20110416,0,4820998.story?track=rss

"Meat in the U.S. may be widely contaminated with strains of drug-resistant bacteria, researchers reported Friday after testing 136 samples of beef, chicken, pork and turkey purchased at grocery stores.

Nearly half of the samples — 47% — contained strains of Staphylococcus aureus, the type of bacteria that most commonly causes staph infections. Of those bacteria, 52% were resistant to at least three classes of antibiotics, according to a study published in the journal Clinical Infectious Diseases."


One of the many things vegetarians don't have to worry about....

[Kisal]

Incidentally, recently had my annual check up with my MD. In my 60's, never been on any blood pressure meds and my blood pressure reading was 105/60. Any of you meat eaters match that?

I can. My doctor says my lipid panel is perfect (Total cholesterol below 200, LDL below 100, HDL over 100), my blood pressure is 104/60, my blood glucose is 85, and I have no heart or lung problems. For the last 6 years, I've eaten meat, eggs and cheese, and not much else. That's not to say I never eat fruits or vegetables, but they are definitely an extremely minimal part of my diet ... a once-every-few-months sort of thing, rather than daily or weekly. (That's probably why it doesn't bother me when the wild animals take most of my berries and cherries. As long as they leave me a handful or two each year, I'm content.) [img]https://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh27/Kisal_photos/dunno.gif[/img]

[farmerlon]

For what it's worth, which may not be much , here's my take on food... I think the quality of the food is more important than the type of food. In other words, I think you can eat meat or veg, pretty much anything that you want, in moderation, if you do your best to source good quality ingredients... such as organic produce and free-range organic meats, etc... .

This is a very broad and simple generalization (with no offense meant to anyone) ... it appears to me that people that sit on their hind-end and eat fast-food every day are typically unhealthy, while folks that work/exercise daily and eat foods of high quality are typically healthy.

[tomf]

Incidentally, recently had my annual check up with my MD. In my 60's, never been on any blood pressure meds and my blood pressure reading was 105/60. Any of you meat eaters match that?

Not only can I match it but top it; mine is way higher!

[Green Mantis]

Farmerlon-----Have to agree with you. It's how the animals were raised and butchered that make the difference. We raised our own beef, chickens and turkeys, for ourselves when our kids were young. Milked our own cow, goats at one time and had our own laying hens. But they were all raised and butchered very humanly. They were not stressed, well fed and cared for when alive, but the kids always knew that so and so was for the table/freezer. Not as pets.--------The way these big farms raise and butcher animals now, puts you right off wanting to eat that food, if you can call it that. We try to buy organic home raised meat as much as possible, eggs as well.------------My husband's big problem is celiacs, there just isn't enough things out there, that don't have grains in them. Bread is very expensive, not easy to make at home. Most doesn't taste very good. Not easy planning a meal for him. Especially if you go out. I think there are a lot more people finding out they have celiacs, than they did years ago. They called it wasting disease then.