I am a beginner & starting from scratch.My ground soil was too hard to dig so I used rotovator but it didn't help much.The problem now I am facing is that my ground has got all clay in it & no soil.Is there a way to get rid of it?I need to first level down the ground,but clay is hard that its not possible to rake it...I want to lay down new grass bed.I don't know what should I do...will be grateful for your help!
Many thanx!
Tania.
I also have hard clay. The good news is, clay is usually very good in nutrients - so you don't want to get rid of it! I grew the best tomatoes ever this past summer without doing hardly ANYTHING to the soil, or paying near as much attention to the plants as I did in FL.
So, here's what you can do: pick the bed size you would like, and dig in a row about 1' wide at a time. The first row you'll want to put the clay soil on a tarp. From there you take some compost (well-rotted leaves, clippings, well composted manure, kitchen waste) and mix it in your trench with the clay from the next 1' wide row until your soil is a little looser, and work your way down. I've also used a little sawdust before - just something to loosen up that clay so it doesn't all stick together anymore. The amount is up to you.
Then every year (if this is an annual or veggie garden bed) just mix in a little compost at the top layer of the soil. In the winter you can plant ryegrass, and then turn it under in the spring before planting.
For the perennial beds, just adding more compost to the top layer helps a lot - as things break down, the nurtrients sink down to the roots of your plants.
So, here's what you can do: pick the bed size you would like, and dig in a row about 1' wide at a time. The first row you'll want to put the clay soil on a tarp. From there you take some compost (well-rotted leaves, clippings, well composted manure, kitchen waste) and mix it in your trench with the clay from the next 1' wide row until your soil is a little looser, and work your way down. I've also used a little sawdust before - just something to loosen up that clay so it doesn't all stick together anymore. The amount is up to you.
Then every year (if this is an annual or veggie garden bed) just mix in a little compost at the top layer of the soil. In the winter you can plant ryegrass, and then turn it under in the spring before planting.
For the perennial beds, just adding more compost to the top layer helps a lot - as things break down, the nurtrients sink down to the roots of your plants.
We've had a debate ongoing about that. I think we last established that if you do not wish to pull it all up by hand, spraying vinegar on the grass will do the trick and not be bad for the ground or the environment.
I use vinegar on my driveway (it's gravel) - apply it in the morning after the dew is off and the hot sun will do the rest.
I use vinegar on my driveway (it's gravel) - apply it in the morning after the dew is off and the hot sun will do the rest.
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Michigan2Iowa
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grandpasrose
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No, you don't dilute it at all. You do have to watch the acidity of your soil if you use it alot though. If you want to read the previous discussion we had on using vinegar, it is under the "killing bad grass" thread further down under this same forum - tips on gardening.
I have used vinegar for several years to kill weeds and grass in my driveway and walkways, and it works great, and I have not had any detrimental effects. Hope that helps!
Val
I have used vinegar for several years to kill weeds and grass in my driveway and walkways, and it works great, and I have not had any detrimental effects. Hope that helps!
Val
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The Helpful Gardener
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grandpasrose
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opabinia51
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I'm a bit late to this discussion but, yes Grey has given you excellant instructions up top.
Along with Rye, you should plant some sort of Nitrogen Fixer as well such as White clover, Red Clover, Hairy Vetch, Peas, Bush Beans, Fava Beans and so on.
The only ammendment to clay is organic matter so, pile on those leaves. You don't have to dig a trench like Grey said but, it helps. The main thing is to get as much organic matter on and in the clay. Worms will end up being your best friend.
Another way to get rid of that grass is to spread Newspaper (not the coloured advertizements, just the black and white) over the grass and then cover the newspaper with about 6 inches of mulched up leaves. Cover the leaves with some sort of green like grass clippings, manure or some other type of green. Finally, then plant your cover crop with a soil builder like Rye, Oats or Phacelia mixed with a Nitrogen fixer like Crimson Clover, white clover, Fava Beans (you can plant them now and you only will you add nitrogen and carbon to the soil over the next few months but, come spring you will have loads of buttery beans to eat), or Hairy Vetch.
Along with Rye, you should plant some sort of Nitrogen Fixer as well such as White clover, Red Clover, Hairy Vetch, Peas, Bush Beans, Fava Beans and so on.
The only ammendment to clay is organic matter so, pile on those leaves. You don't have to dig a trench like Grey said but, it helps. The main thing is to get as much organic matter on and in the clay. Worms will end up being your best friend.
Another way to get rid of that grass is to spread Newspaper (not the coloured advertizements, just the black and white) over the grass and then cover the newspaper with about 6 inches of mulched up leaves. Cover the leaves with some sort of green like grass clippings, manure or some other type of green. Finally, then plant your cover crop with a soil builder like Rye, Oats or Phacelia mixed with a Nitrogen fixer like Crimson Clover, white clover, Fava Beans (you can plant them now and you only will you add nitrogen and carbon to the soil over the next few months but, come spring you will have loads of buttery beans to eat), or Hairy Vetch.
Well, I said dig a trench because I have found that sort of effort to be my best bet with this clay. It's pretty rock-hard stuff until it's wet, when it's wet I think I could make myself some pottery. Someday I may fire the stuff and find out. I think it would take ages for the organic matter to work into the clay if I just piled it on top - best to at least hoe it in. From there, yes I just toss stuff on top. 
Other than the initial work required, I really have no complaints about my soil here. It's great stuff. My sandy soil in Florida required a lot more work in the nutrient department - like every time it rained!
Other than the initial work required, I really have no complaints about my soil here. It's great stuff. My sandy soil in Florida required a lot more work in the nutrient department - like every time it rained!
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opabinia51
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I am in agreement with you Grey, it's just that with large areas, trenches can become a lot of work (but, I do them anyway). But, through a lot of research and talking to a tonne of experts on the subject, placing the greens and browns on top of the soil over the long run works well too!
Trench composting speeds the process. I use it all the time in my sandy soil in my vegetable garden. At my mother's place, I have been ammending the soil by doing the odd trench compost but, mainly doing the sheet compost everywhere. And in a few months, there is a huge difference. Year after year, the soil gets less "Clayey" slowly but surely. Trench composting does speed it along!
Trench composting speeds the process. I use it all the time in my sandy soil in my vegetable garden. At my mother's place, I have been ammending the soil by doing the odd trench compost but, mainly doing the sheet compost everywhere. And in a few months, there is a huge difference. Year after year, the soil gets less "Clayey" slowly but surely. Trench composting does speed it along!
Oh I understand Opa.
I wouldn't do it for a large bush/tree bed exactly - just the veggie beds that I have to dig in every year. The trees and shrubs get their compost on top, though I do some small mixing in the hole while planting (not much though, as I have heard that if you do too much of that mixing in the hole the tree/shrub will not want to leave that good stuff too willingly, and the other potential problem is the hole filling with water, as clay is slower draining. I don't know that I worry about the second too much unless you get a lot of flooding.
As for the first... the theory goes that it is almost like having a tree go pot-bound. But it sure seems to me that a tree will spread its roots in search of water and nutrients, why would the clay around the original hole be such a problem?
I wouldn't do it for a large bush/tree bed exactly - just the veggie beds that I have to dig in every year. The trees and shrubs get their compost on top, though I do some small mixing in the hole while planting (not much though, as I have heard that if you do too much of that mixing in the hole the tree/shrub will not want to leave that good stuff too willingly, and the other potential problem is the hole filling with water, as clay is slower draining. I don't know that I worry about the second too much unless you get a lot of flooding.
As for the first... the theory goes that it is almost like having a tree go pot-bound. But it sure seems to me that a tree will spread its roots in search of water and nutrients, why would the clay around the original hole be such a problem?
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opabinia51
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If I understand your question correctly, the problem with having clay around the original hole is that the pore size in a clay substrate is small or non existant and the roots either have a very tough time or can't move from outside the original hole. The result is a stunted tree and an unhealthy tree because it can't acquire the nutrients that it needs for growth.
This is why doing trench composting (like you said) and sheet composting every year in a clay environment is very important. Even the sheet composting will ammend the clay environment as worms will move into the environment and pull the organic matter down into the clay. Therefore, increasing the amount of organic matter increases the pore size of the soil, allowing for the roots to grow and allowing for more worms to move into the environment.
This is why doing trench composting (like you said) and sheet composting every year in a clay environment is very important. Even the sheet composting will ammend the clay environment as worms will move into the environment and pull the organic matter down into the clay. Therefore, increasing the amount of organic matter increases the pore size of the soil, allowing for the roots to grow and allowing for more worms to move into the environment.
Right. The part that seems odd to me is.... I've seen tree roots do just fine in this clay.
So if roots are used to a soft life going through compost, then hit the clay - are they not going to be tough enough to go through the clay?
And - over time - wouldn't the compost and the clay begin to mix some at the edges - providing a "transistional" area?
Theoretically speaking of course.
So if roots are used to a soft life going through compost, then hit the clay - are they not going to be tough enough to go through the clay?
And - over time - wouldn't the compost and the clay begin to mix some at the edges - providing a "transistional" area?
Theoretically speaking of course.
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The Helpful Gardener
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What you describe is called a soil interface, Grey. Roots don't stop, but they do stall when they come to one and that bathtub effect can cause trees to tip in very windy conditions, especially when they are young. Eventually roots will cross the interface, but it can stall them for a year or two. Mixing the soils with the compost can help some, but now we have another soil interface. So there is the root ball to compost interface, then the compost to clay interface. Simply planting in the same soil and allowing the nutrients to leach into the soil creates one less interface (only rootball to clay in the other model)...
For veggies and such, with smaller roots, creating the nice soil is more beneficial. But for trees and shrubs, no ammending and improving soil from the surface down is the best approach. Opa is right again...
HG
For veggies and such, with smaller roots, creating the nice soil is more beneficial. But for trees and shrubs, no ammending and improving soil from the surface down is the best approach. Opa is right again...
HG
Last edited by The Helpful Gardener on Fri Mar 03, 2006 12:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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opabinia51
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Scott, that had to be the best description that I have ever read. That was amazing, it was like a national geographic narrator stepped into the website.
Anyway, yes, I agree with all that you said and just to add a bit,
Yes, tree roots can pentrate hard, compact surfaces, they will even grow through concrete and eventually break it up into what is the genesis of new soil (many centuries down the line)
Anyway, yes, I agree with all that you said and just to add a bit,
Yes, tree roots can pentrate hard, compact surfaces, they will even grow through concrete and eventually break it up into what is the genesis of new soil (many centuries down the line)
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The Helpful Gardener
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opabinia51
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Well...
take for instance some building in the middle of central British Columiba that has been abondoned for many decades. All that remains is the foundatation and slowly over time the tree roots break up the foundation into a crumbly mass that with the addition of leaves and needles (which, are leaves) from the surrounding trees will be a nice soil. That's a good thing.
A BAD THING:
Planting a Weeping Willow next to the foundation of your houe or next to a patio or even worse, next to a septic system. NOT A GOOD THING.
So, I say: Choose your battles
take for instance some building in the middle of central British Columiba that has been abondoned for many decades. All that remains is the foundatation and slowly over time the tree roots break up the foundation into a crumbly mass that with the addition of leaves and needles (which, are leaves) from the surrounding trees will be a nice soil. That's a good thing.
A BAD THING:
Planting a Weeping Willow next to the foundation of your houe or next to a patio or even worse, next to a septic system. NOT A GOOD THING.
So, I say: Choose your battles
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The Helpful Gardener
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Sure. A Tree Grows in Brooklyn. An Ailanthus altissima, a Tree of Heaven. At least in Central China, where it comes from that's what they call it. I call it a non-native invasive, so I have to ask WHAT trees are repopulating those buildings before I'd greenlight it all the way...This is one of the real badguys; bet you and I share this one Opa. Found in forty two states including Hawaii and a specialist in urban survival...
[url]https://www.nps.gov/plants/alien/fact/aial1.htm[/url]
[url]https://www.nps.gov/plants/alien/fact/aial1.htm[/url]
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grandpasrose
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I agree Scott that Ailanthus altissima (sumac) is a wild spreader. Not to argue the need to be aware of the plants that are invasive and noxious, but I hesitate to use this list of plants as THE bible. Look at the plants listed on it - apples, celery, asparagus, lilac, and garlic, to name a few. I think I would take this list with a little bit of caution.
Val
Val
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grandpasrose
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opabinia51
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The Helpful Gardener
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Look at who is compiling this list Val. Foresters, ecologists and scientists from the state and federal parks and only when they find plants out of bounds. If those plants are indeed on this list, we should look carefully..,
On the other hand I was on the CT INvasive plant listing and they jad incorrectly listed Acer pseudoplatanus , (that grows in my yard and I have NEVER seen a seedling) instead of the horribly invasive Acer platanoides, the one that SHOULD have been on the list. So always worth doing your homework, but we need to look at this carefully...
HG
On the other hand I was on the CT INvasive plant listing and they jad incorrectly listed Acer pseudoplatanus , (that grows in my yard and I have NEVER seen a seedling) instead of the horribly invasive Acer platanoides, the one that SHOULD have been on the list. So always worth doing your homework, but we need to look at this carefully...
HG