how to kill bad grass??

[mikbik]

anytips on killng those unwanted grass growing all over my garden

[Grey]

Hi Mikbik - you can either pull it, or put something like a pile of newspapers (just the black and white pages) under the mulch around your plants. Roundup isn't so great for the environment or the soil, neither is vinegar (though, in my driveway I admit I spray vinegar to keep the weeds down).

[opabinia51]

Round up is definately a NO-NO as the active ingredient GLYPHOSATE stays around for a very long time and is really bad for the environment. I must admit that I have not heard that Vinegar is bad for the environment as the acid in vinegar is Acetic Acid and the conentrations of acetic acid in vinegar would lead me to believe that the dicrease in pH of the local soil area would be negligable.

When I have more time I will look up the MSDS of Acetic Acid and see if it has any long term effects.

The best way to get rid of unwanted grass is to dig it up and spread some seed over the area where it was.

[Grey]

I found out recently that most white vinegar we buy anymore isn't as natural as it used to be - I'll see if I can find the details. I had also read somewhere that vinegar can have some bad effects on your soil - don't recall the damages but not as bad as roundup for sure!

I hate weeding... but it always seems to be the best way to go.

[opabinia51]

Yah, I personally don't get caught up in how "natural" some of the things we buy are. I have a really good understanding of how a lot of organic molecules and chemicals are synthesized and if you buy white vinegar that was derived from a plant of some sort or that was produced from "scratch" is some large scale lab it really makes no difference as to what you are consuming or putting into your soil. The active ingredient is still Acetic Acid which, is an organic acid: CH3COOH(can't do subscripts here, at least can't figure out how to.) and is a weak acid.

I used to work in a lab where we used concentrated Acetic Acid to dissolve Rocks to obtain microfossils and even though you wouldn't want to add concentrated acid to any environment, in the concentration that Vinegar comes, it really wouldn't cause any huge detrimental affect as far as I know.

But, give me some time and I will look up the toxicology of Acetic Acid and that way we can all be sure.

[The Helpful Gardener]

ARRGH! I've been poisoning my salads?!



S

[Grey]

Now I know why I prefer Ranch dressing...

[opabinia51]

Oh you guys, most things have a variable degree of toxicity but, in moderation they have little to no affect on our general state of being and physiological health.... you know what? I'm tired of studying... I'm going to go and look up good old Acetic Acid right now and dispel any assumptions...... (be back in a minutes).

[opabinia51]

This is for Glacial Acetic Acid (concentrated. Ie) the stuff I used to work with)

Potential Health Effects
----------------------------------

Inhalation:
Inhalation of concentrated vapors may cause serious damage to the lining of the nose, throat, and
lungs. Breathing difficulties may occur. Neither odor nor degree of irritation are adequate to indicate
vapor concentration.

Ingestion:
Swallowing can cause severe injury leading to death. Symptoms include sore throat, vomiting, and
diarrhea. Ingestion of as little as 1.0 ml has resulted in perforation of the esophagus.

Skin Contact:
Contact with concentrated solution may cause serious damage to the skin. Effects may include
redness, pain, skin burns. High vapor concentrations may cause skin sensitization.

Eye Contact:
Eye contact with concentrated solutions may cause severe eye damage followed by loss of sight.
Exposure to vapor may cause intense watering and irritation to eyes.

Chronic Exposure:
Repeated or prolonged exposures may cause darkening of the skin, erosion of exposed front teeth,
and chronic inflammation of the nose, throat, and bronchial tubes.

Aggravation of Pre-existing Conditions:
Persons with pre-existing skin disorders or eye problems, or impaired respiratory function may be
more susceptible to the effects of the substance.


AND HERE IS THE (LACK THEREOF) MSDS FOR VINEGAR:
Vinegar is a dilute aqueous solution of acetic acid. It can be produced in a variety of ways, from wine, from the fermentation of grains, from dilution of acetic acid itself and so on. If you drink enough vinegar, you (unsurprisingly) won't feel too well. However, the data sheet for acetic acid, which outlines the hazards presented by the pure acid, should not be taken as representing the hazards (if any!) which might be associated with vinegar.


(Aqueous just means that the acid is suspended in water)

Anyway, to make a long story short, there is no problem with using vinegar as an herbicide.

[The Helpful Gardener]

For those not used to handling the hard stuff MSDS is a Material Safety Data Sheet.

I'm breathing easier now; I'm a big fan of Salt and Vinegar chips...

HG

[Grey]

MMmmmm - yummy! I haven't had those in a while.

Well, I am happy to know about the vinegar too - I thought it would be bad for the soil if I used it as a weed control.

[The Helpful Gardener]

If acidification of the soil is bad for particular plants it could be detrimental, but it takes a LOT of acidification to change base soils and with the buffering of most base soils, almost impossible to hold low ph. I wouldn't worry unless you are growing rockplants or their ilk...

Try the vinegar Mikbik!

Scott

[opabinia51]

When I have the time I will do a pH test on some white vinegar but, I would think that the pH would be around 5-6 which is not very acidic.

( 1 2 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 -----7 is neutral, 1-6 is acidic (yes you can have negative pH's) and 8 to 14 is Basic)

For reference, the pH in the human mouth is 7.2, the pH is the stomach is about 2 and the pH in the small intestine is about 8.