Received a Juniper Bonsai Today - Questions

[VR6 Mk3]

In the past few months, I've started picking up a few houseplants to brighten up my house. I started thinking about how cool that bonsai trees look, and considered trying to grow one. After reading on your forums and other websites though, I decided that I might be in over my head with one, between my work and travel schedules, climate that I live in, and the fact that I'm a novice to plants. Then today I received a beautiful Juniper bonsai tree as a gift from my girlfriend. Her intention was that I would keep it on my desk at work and enjoy it. It's the same one as this one:
http://ww21.1800flowers.com/product.do? ... d=whd10291
Unfortunately it sounds like I won't be able to do this and have it stay alive for a long time. Even though I know it will be very difficult, it was a very thoughtful gift, and I want to keep it healthy and beautiful. I tried to read up on the basics as much as I can, but I have a few questions to get me started:

1. Most importantly, what do I do with it right now? I understand that it needs a dormancy period in the winter? I don't know what conditions that it's been kept in. All I know is that all day today it was displayed on my desk at work at room temperature. I live in Ohio, so the winter conditions can vary a lot. It's 21*F right now outside, it was 5* when I left this morning. Winter conditions can vary from negative temps, to high 50s here. Do I put it directly outside tonight? I feel like this would shock the plant. Can I keep it in my garage where it's cooler? Can I put it in a refrigerator or something? These solutions won't give it any light.

2. Assuming that I figure out the winter dormancy, is it acceptable for me to keep it inside during the spring/summer/fall months? She bought it for me to look at and enjoy it, and I don't feel like I will get much benefit from it sitting outside all the time, plus I can give it better care if it's inside with my other plants.

3. It says to water by submerging the pot in water for 20 minutes to allow the soil to soak. Is it okay to use tap water for this? Same for the humidity tray (or will I not even be using that if it's outside)?

[Gnome]

VR6 Mk3,

Hello and welcome. I'm glad to see that you realize that Junipers requires a dormant period.

I understand that it needs a dormancy period in the winter? I don't know what conditions that it's been kept in.

Not knowing how it has been kept up to now makes this difficult. This is a situation that should never need to be addressed but since these sellers insist upon selling these trees out of season, well....

Can I keep it in my garage where it's cooler? Can I put it in a refrigerator or something? These solutions won't give it any light.

An unheated garage can be used but I hesitate to suggest a move this late in the season. Do you have an extra room that can be kept unheated? How warm/cold does your garage stay? Evergreens don't need high intensity light at low temperatures. Even an inexpensive shop-light can do during this time.

Assuming that I figure out the winter dormancy, is it acceptable for me to keep it inside during the spring/summer/fall months? She bought it for me to look at and enjoy it, and I don't feel like I will get much benefit from it sitting outside all the time

Not really, I keep all of my trees/plants outside during the summer, even tropicals that must come inside during the winter are much happier outside during warm weather. Bonsai is primarily an outside activity despite what some unscrupulous sellers claim/imply.

If you really want to keep bonsai inside you need to look to tropicals, Ficus is the most obvious. As noted above though even those are better off outside while possible.

It says to water by submerging the pot in water for 20 minutes to allow the soil to soak. Is it okay to use tap water for this?

This seems to be another compromise to appeal to indoor growers. Watering by immersion is not the preferred method. In the short term it is not a big deal but in the long run it can lead to the build up of dissolved minerals/salts that may be in your water/fertilizer. Take a look at the general growing sticky at the top of the forum for some tips on watering.

Tap water is generally OK unless heavily chlorinated in which case allow it to stand overnight to dissipate. Humidity trays are of little use outside as moving air counteracts the effects of the evaporating water.

http://www.bonsai4me.com/SpeciesGuide/Juniperus.html

Norm

[VR6 Mk3]

An unheated garage can be used but I hesitate to suggest a move this late in the season. Do you have an extra room that can be kept unheated? How warm/cold does your garage stay? Evergreens don't need high intensity light at low temperatures. Even an inexpensive shop-light can do during this time.

The garage probably stays maybe in the 50s? It's part of my house. I guess I could leave the light on in there or something. I have a room that I leave the door shut, so it stays somewhat colder (10 degrees maybe?) than the rest of the house. A good part of the winter (maybe 3 separate 1.5 week periods) I will be out of town, so I'll be leaving the thermostat at 55 or so during that time. When I'm in town it's usually 60-68 during winter depending on if I'm in the house or not.

Would it damage the tree badly if I left it inside for this winter, and then next winter try to follow some sort of proper dormancy routine? I'm also not sure what to do next year, since I think the weather here might get too cold for a plant like this outside.

Not really, I keep all of my trees/plants outside during the summer, even tropicals that must come inside during the winter are much happier outside during warm weather. Bonsai is primarily an outside activity despite what some unscrupulous sellers claim/imply.

Why in the spring/summer if temperatures inside are similar to outside? I realize what beautiful plants that they can become, and appreciate all of the work that goes into them, but if it stays outside in my backyard 99% of the time, then I won't get any enjoyment out of it.

If you really want to keep bonsai inside you need to look to tropicals, Ficus is the most obvious. As noted above though even those are better off outside while possible.

I have a schefflera (sp?), and I was thinking about trying to make a bonsai out of a clipping, and a handful of other house plants that I enjoy, but I need to keep this Juniper that I already have alive.



Thanks for all of the great advice though. Hopefully I can figure it out.

[ynot]

The garage probably stays maybe in the 50s? It's part of my house. I guess I could leave the light on in there or something.I have a room that I leave the door shut, so it stays somewhat colder (10 degrees maybe?) than the rest of the house. A good part of the winter (maybe 3 separate 1.5 week periods) I will be out of town, so I'll be leaving the thermostat at 55 or so during that time. When I'm in town it's usually 60-68 during winter depending on if I'm in the house or not.

Acclimate it to the garage, It will be fine.

Would it damage the tree badly if I left it inside for this winter, and then next winter try to follow some sort of proper dormancy routine? I'm also not sure what to do next year, since I think the weather here might get too cold for a plant like this outside.

It depends entirely on if you consider 'damage it badly' to be equivalent to death... As this is what you risk.
Wrong, I am willing to bet there are junipers that live in Ohio, However it is too late to acclimate it this year.

A potted plant just needs a bit of protection is all. There are an extremely wide range of options between 'too cold outside' & 'it needs to be kept inside'

Why in the spring/summer if temperatures inside are similar to outside?I realize what beautiful plants that they can become, and appreciate all of the work that goes into them,

Apparently you 'appreciate all of the work' but you do not realize there is more involved to keeping bonsai healthy & lush & verdant than 'similar temperatures'. IE: Humidity & lighting.

but if it stays outside in my backyard 99% of the time, then I won't get any enjoyment out of it.

If you will enjoy it equally as much no matter if it is dead or alive... Then by all means keep it indoors.

That may sound harsh to you but....It is the truth.

If you are interested in the welfare of your juniper as opposed to simply your enjoyment of it [which not coincidentally will last far far longer] you will let it live outside where it will be healthiest & happiest.

but I need to keep this Juniper that I already have alive.

Thanks for all of the great advice though. Hopefully I can figure it out.

The answers are all right here, See above, BTW did you read the link Gnome posted at the end of his post? [There is plenty more useful info there also.]

Here is a quote from the page he linked you to {Emphasis is mine}

Never try to grow Junipers indoors, though they may seem to tolerate indoor cultivation at first, poor humidity, lack of light and dormancy will eventually kill them. Do not trust a vendor, seller, book or website that claims Junipers can be grown successfully indoors! Dead Junipers can continue to display normal foliage colour for weeks or even months after they have effectively died.

ynot

[VR6 Mk3]

Sorry, like I said in the first post, I think I'm over my head a bit with this, but since I have it now I want to keep it healthy. I did read the link posted, but it didn't answer all of the questions that apply to my current predicament.

If I put it into the garage for this winter, should I leave some sort of a light on with a timer or something? It's normally totally dark in there. Also, will it harm the plant when I open and close the garage on very cold days to get my cars in and out? Should I handle watering normally (water when the soil becomes dry)?

Thanks again.

[Gnome]

VR6 Mk3,

If I put it into the garage for this winter, should I leave some sort of a light on with a timer or something? It's normally totally dark in there.

Yes, 50 degrees is too warm to go without light. Here is some basic information on indoor lighting.

http://extension.missouri.edu/explore/agguides/hort/g06515.htm

Also, will it harm the plant when I open and close the garage on very cold days to get my cars in and out?

No, I don't think a short blast of cold air would be a problem especially after the tree settles in to its new environment. I would try to minimize the exposure to exhaust fumes though.

Should I handle watering normally (water when the soil becomes dry)?

Yes, although the frequency of watering will be lessened during the winter.

Norm

[VR6 Mk3]

Thanks!

If it acclimates to the garage for a few weeks at 40-50 degrees, will there be a point that I can put it outside, if for example temps go up into the 30s, or am I better off to leave it in the garage for this winter and put it outside in the spring?

[Gnome]

VR6 Mk3,

If it acclimates to the garage for a few weeks at 40-50 degrees, will there be a point that I can put it outside, if for example temps go up into the 30s, or am I better off to leave it in the garage for this winter and put it outside in the spring?

I don't like to move my trees around any more than necessary, if it seems happy I think I would leave well enough alone. One possibility would be to locate the tree nearer the heat from the house at first, later moving it to a colder location of your garage.

At some point in the spring you will move it outside and leave it there permanently, I know that is not what you had envisioned but that is what's best for the tree. If you get the bug you will eventually want another tree and then you can choose one that is more appropriate for indoor culture if you wish. Good luck and keep us informed.

Norm

[VR6 Mk3]

I don't like to move my trees around any more than necessary, if it seems happy I think I would leave well enough alone. One possibility would be to locate the tree nearer the heat from the house at first, later moving it to a colder location of your garage.

At some point in the spring you will move it outside and leave it there permanently, I know that is not what you had envisioned but that is what's best for the tree. If you get the bug you will eventually want another tree and then you can choose one that is more appropriate for indoor culture if you wish. Good luck and keep us informed.

Norm

Sounds good, thanks!

So for the time being, I just placed a lamp directly over the tree with a light bulb similar to the one shown below, since it was the closest thing that I had to fluorescent, and it does not produce a lot of heat, as to not damage the plant. The link shown doesn't specifically address this type of bulb, will it provide any benefit to me at all?

I also have some typical shop lights in my garage that I could temporarily relocate above the plant. Will those be similar to what is shown on the website, or do I have to purchase a specific grow light? If I do need a special grow light, where can I buy something like that?

[VR6 Mk3]

Also, sorry another question. It came in a plastic pot currently. Am I correct to assume that a ceramic pot would be better, but that I'm better off to leave it alone, and not to repot it until the spring?

[ynot]

Also, sorry another question. It came in a plastic pot currently. Am I correct to assume that a ceramic pot would be better, but that I'm better off to leave it alone, and not to repot it until the spring?

'Better' is a question of aesthetics but that aside...Spring is a far more appropriate time for a repot than now.

since it was the closest thing that I had to fluorescent

It is a fluorescent bulb.

The link shown doesn't specifically address this type of bulb, will it provide any benefit to me at all?

It will do just fine, Your juniper [once dormant] will have a [VERY] minimal amount of photosynthesis going on and that bulb will be quite adequate.

ynot

[VR6 Mk3]

'Better' is a question of aesthetics but that aside...Spring is a far more appropriate time for a repot than now.

By "better" i meant better for the health of the plant. Aesthetics aren't what I'm worried about right now, just keeping it healthy while I try to get the hang of this.

It is a fluorescent bulb.

Ok...thank you. I didn't know if it emits the same wavelenghts of light as a conventional tube fluorescent.

[ynot]

'Better' is a question of aesthetics but that aside...Spring is a far more appropriate time for a repot than now.

By "better" I meant better for the health of the plant. Aesthetics aren't what I'm worried about right now, just keeping it healthy while I try to get the hang of this.

Understood, Essentially there is no difference & I personally feel that if the pot made the difference between life or death then that's cutting it far too close anyway Know what I mean ?
[Some may say ceramic 'breathes' a bit but that does not apply to the glazed versions.]

BTW, Plenty of fine bonsai spent the majority of their training [Years!] in 1 or 3 or 5 gallon plastic training pots.

It is a fluorescent bulb.

Ok...thank you. I didn't know if it emits the same wavelenghts of light as a conventional tube fluorescent.

Every little bit helps, As I recall the color temp [wavelengths] are on the packaging for those bulbs - Just take a peek at them next time you are going down the isle to see what you have at home.

Oh and check the 'lumens' also, I suspect that bulb is around 700 or so.

Sorry my replys are so short - Time is sparse for me at the moment.

ynot

[VR6 Mk3]

Sorry my replys are so short - Time is sparse for me at the moment.

ynot

No problem, my tree thanks you for the info that you have given me.

[VR6 Mk3]

I have a follow-up and some questions.

I stored the bonsai in the garage with a light over it on a timer as was suggested in this thread. As far as I can tell, It still seems to be healthy, and there is even what I think is new growth coming from the tips of the branches (see below):



So the weather is warmer now, and I decided that it would be a good time to move it outside. I have a few questions though:
1. Is it too early to move it outside if there is still a chance of the temp going below freezing?
2. I know that it's very possible that it won't get enough water from rain, and that I need to check frequently if it's getting enough water. However, in this spring rainy season, is it possible for it to get TOO MUCH water? Is there anything I should do about that?
3. Below are some photos of the location that I chose. I chose this location A) because it's the side of the house that gets the most light, and B) because it's right outside my kitchen, so it will be the easiest spot for me to care for it frequently. The bungee cords are to keep it safely in place in case of strong winds.









Thanks for any advice!

[Gnome]

VR6 Mk3,

Good for you, you have made it past the first winter. That is a significant milestone for new growers. Do you feel better now about having kept it cool for the winter?

1. Is it too early to move it outside if there is still a chance of the temp going below freezing?

No it is not too early for your tree to be outside mine all are as well. Junipers are pretty hardy so unless we (I'm near Pittsburgh) get a really bad cold snap I would not worry too much about it. A few hours at, or near, freezing will not harm it. If you are really concerned you can move it in at night if it is predicted to get really cold.

Here is a link to the National Weather Service's forecast for your area, bookmark this link. I refer to it daily. If you scroll down and look to the right of the page you will see a link to an hourly weather graph that I find useful.

I may shelter some of my things tomorrow night, primarily things that have re-potted recently. I'll wait until Sunday afternoon and check the hourly forecast to make the decision.

2. I know that it's very possible that it won't get enough water from rain, and that I need to check frequently if it's getting enough water. However, in this spring rainy season, is it possible for it to get TOO MUCH water? Is there anything I should do about that?

I would not worry too much about that unless your tree is in a really heavily organic mix (we have not yet discussed growing mediums have we?) or you are getting steady rains for several days. I have my plants in a free draining mix so this is never an issue for me. The only plant I shelter from rain is my Chinese Elm that develops a fungus if the new, tender foliage is exposed to rain early in the spring.

The location seems fine, outside with good sun and close enough to care for and enjoy. What is that structure it is on? That would seem to be a suitable location for shade lovers like Azaleas.

Norm

[VR6 Mk3]

Good for you, you have made it past the first winter. That is a significant milestone for new growers. Do you feel better now about having kept it cool for the winter?

I'm glad that it seems to still be healthy, I was worried about the garage being cold enough for it.

I would not worry too much about that unless your tree is in a really heavily organic mix (we have not yet discussed growing mediums have we?)

I don't really know what the soil is, it's just whatever it came to me with.

What is that structure it is on? That would seem to be a suitable location for shade lovers like Azaleas.

It's just the "roof" of my back porch.

Thanks again for the advice!

[constantstaticx3]

Congratulations on making it through your first winter. I am surprised by the apparent quality of your tree. The trunk looks to be a nice size unlike most mallsai. Any chance we could get a close up pic so we could see the potential?

Tom

[alisios]

Yes - good job!

Nice pictures and it looks like a very nice tree!

[VR6 Mk3]

That's good to hear. I'll take some more photos when I get a chance.

And thanks for the compliments. I don't normally focus on plant photography, but here are a few that I've done recently:

http://www.overdrivephoto.com/Galleries ... seups.html

[VR6 Mk3]

I still haven't gotten a chance to take pics, but I will soon.

I was wondering though, what is my goal with this tree (other than keeping it healthy and alive)? Do I keep clipping it regularly to maintain the current shape and size? Do I let it grow freely for a long time and then reshape it? Do I want it to get much bigger, or keep the same size?

I know that some of these things are up to each individual, but I wanted to have some goal in mind.

[Gnome]

VR6 Mk3,

what is my goal with this tree

That is, as they say, the $64,000.00 question. There is a well known saying that states that small bonsai don't become large bonsai. Larger trees are collected or grown out over a period of years or decades to increase the trunk size. Probably the best thing is to enjoy it for what it is. Consider it a training tree, with you being the one trained. Learn how to pinch it and how to fertilize and re-pot as required. That way you will be better prepared when you seek your next tree.

That is not to say you cannot improve what you have just don't expect a grand old tree with lots of deadwood. Look at as many pictures as you can find. Study the tree carefully before you make any drastic changes. From the pictures it looks as though it could be thinned a bit. I mean actually removing some branches rather than simply pinching, the canopy seems a little crowded. It is difficult for anyone to make those decisions for you from a few pictures.

Norm

[VR6 Mk3]

That is, as they say, the $64,000.00 question.

Yeah, I know that it's something I would need to figure out based on personal preference, etc etc. I just wanted a general guideline of what I should be doing with this tree. It's already got what the tree company thought was a good shape, and I think it looks pretty cool. I'm just wondering as it grows more branches, and the current ones grow longer, should I be constantly cutting it back to maintain it's current shape? Should I cut it back now? Should I let it grow fully? Does it not matter, and it's whatever I feel like?

Here are a few more pics:

[Gnome]

VR6 Mk3,

It's really difficult to make any meaningful suggestions like this but one thing I notice that seems unusual is the way that the branch/branches curve back on themselves in a sort of horse-shoe effect. Look for a new shoot that you can prune back to eliminating the strange growth pattern. It is possible that I am mistaken in what I am seeing so use your own judgment.

Norm

[kdodds]

I have to agree with Norm about the "horseshoes". Further, though, it looks like al of the new growth is restricted to the ends of these "horseshoes" which would, from what I can see, make "fixing" the "problem" very difficult. You might just want to resign yourself to this being a tree you can enjoy and shape in your own fashion rather than relying on traditional design principles.

[constantstaticx3]

I'm having trouble viewing your pics, they wont load, do you think you could resize them?

Tom

[Gnome]

Tom,

I can't see them now either but they worked earlier. Perhaps it is a temporary issue with the host, check back later.

Norm

[VR6 Mk3]

Yeah, the host is down for some reason.

[VR6 Mk3]

Hi, I haven't posted in a while as things have been going well with the Bonsai. Lately though, I've noticed a portion of it beginning to look slightly brown. It's still mostly green, but maybe not quite as bright of a green, and a few areas the "leaves" are light brown, especially closer to the branches.

Is this normal/acceptable? It went below freezing a bunch of times recently, and now it's back up into the 70s. If it's not normal, what can I do to try to help the tree? Perhaps I haven't been watering it enough?

Also, I need to start researching how to prepare for winter. Any suggestions are welcome, but I'll check the stickies on this site.

[alexinoklahoma]

A pic would help greatly here for extent of browning. It is not unusual for junipers to slowly brown the inner needles as they age, especially if they are heavily shaded from the outer layers of growth. It is when the whole thing slowly browns that it becomes an issue.

It is also not unusual for many junipers to kinda go brownish/purple (varying degrees) when weather gets colder. Degree of color change is variable between individual plants.

For winter protection, burying the pot and/or rootball will be enough protection for most any juniper. You do need to get that done sooner, rather than later, unless you enjoy being 'late' for things, LOL...

Alex

[VR6 Mk3]

I will take some pics this weekend. I've been out of town for the past week (my room mate/rain have been watering it while I was gone).

Just bury, no worry for covering the plant? Thanks!

[alexinoklahoma]

All you need to 'protect' is the roots. The above-ground portions of pretty much all Junipers can withstand some pretty cold temps by design. If/when they get snow-covered, they are rather safe as the snow insulates.

So, yeah, just burying pot is fine. you can also place it into a much larger pot and backfill with mulch or whatever and insulate *that* pot in-ground or wherever. Make sense?

Alex

[VR6 Mk3]

Thanks for the tips!

I took some photos today, please let me know if you have any advice for me.

Here are some of the brown areas. I tried to adjust the white balance as best I could to show the true color. Please let me know if this browning is normal before winter, or if the plant is sick. The part of the tree that was facing the house is definitely greener, and the whole thing has definitely lost a lot of color compared to the spring:







Also, I've buried the pot in my garden for the winter and covered it with soil. Please let me know if I've chosen a good location:




I've also posted some more photos here if that helps:
http://www.overdrivephoto.com/images/Bo ... index.html

[VR6 Mk3]

Wow, planted it in the ground, and the next morning it's snowing out. Hopefully I did it just at the right time?

[VR6 Mk3]

Anyone?

[Gnome]

VR6 Mk3,

I think you have done fine as far as the location is concerned. Now that I see it the overall color of the tree concerns me somewhat but it may just be the lighting. I take it that you have not re-potted it yet. In reviewing this thread I assumed you were going to do so this past spring.

Norm

[VR6 Mk3]

VR6 Mk3,

I think you have done fine as far as the location is concerned. Now that I see it the overall color of the tree concerns me somewhat but it may just be the lighting. I take it that you have not re-potted it yet. In reviewing this thread I assumed you were going to do so this past spring.

Norm

Thanks! I quickly re-read the thread, and I didn't see anything about re-potting it? I've had the tree for less than a year, and everything I've read says to re-pot every 2 years or so.

If the color is a concern, is there anything that I can do at this point to help it out?

[Gnome]

Also, sorry another question. It came in a plastic pot currently. Am I correct to assume that a ceramic pot would be better, but that I'm better off to leave it alone, and not to repot it until the spring?

'Better' is a question of aesthetics but that aside...Spring is a far more appropriate time for a repot than now.
ynot

Emphasis mine.

I had assumed this meant you intended to re-pot this past spring. While a two year cycle would certainly not be too infrequent I would have liked to see it in a better medium by now.

when I got my Juniper it was borderline too late to re-pot so I left it the first year but the first order of business the following spring was to get it into a nearly 100% inorganic medium. I used approx 50% Haydite/50% Lava with just a touch of bark.

This may be part of your problem, Junipers don't like 'wet feet' perhaps the water retentive nature of the soil has caught up with it.
http://www.overdrivephoto.com/images/Bo ... _3579.html

Norm

[VR6 Mk3]

I had assumed this meant you intended to re-pot this past spring. While a two year cycle would certainly not be too infrequent I would have liked to see it in a better medium by now.

when I got my Juniper it was borderline too late to re-pot so I left it the first year but the first order of business the following spring was to get it into a nearly 100% inorganic medium. I used approx 50% Haydite/50% Lava with just a touch of bark.

This may be part of your problem, Junipers don't like 'wet feet' perhaps the water retentive nature of the soil has caught up with it.
http://www.overdrivephoto.com/images/Bo ... _3579.html

Norm

Sorry, when you said later that the type of pot (plastic vs. ceramic) is not so important, I thought that meant that I didn't need to repot. I didn't realize the soil was not ok. I actually thought the opposite may have been true, and the tree wasn't getting enough water.

I will now plan new soil for NEXT spring. Is there anything else that I can do between now and then to help the situation?

[alexinoklahoma]

FWIW, ditto to what 'gnome' has said. I, too, think its a bit brownish, but possibly the lighting/camera issue(s). I now my camera sucks at 'true' color. Location is good, and snow is fortuitous as well. Just keep it from staying 'soggy'; dryness is not likely an issue being a Juniperus, IMO

Definitely repot just before it starts its awakening come Spring '09. Otherwise, gut feeling says it will be toast (same color, too, LOL)...

Alex