Need Help for Chinese Elm - Ants & Aphids

[Juliew]

I don't know what to do. I have a Chinese elm, and it's got problems. I've had it about a month, and was doing ok until about 3 days ago. I saw what I thought were aphids (and ants) on the leaves and soil, so I took it to a local bonsai shop to confirm. The nice gentleman told me yes, I do have aphids and suggested neem oil or insecticidal soap to take care of the aphids. I also asked him if it needs repotting, and he said yes, and that it was in the wrong kind of soil.

He also said it cannot be repotted now, and that I have to wait until December or January. The soil is very hard, and he told me to poke holes in it for air, which I did as soon as I finished spraying it with organic insecticidal soap. This was yesterday. Between yesterday and today it has lost a lot of leaves. It still has a lot, and there is some new growth.

Ok, now my questions: The aphids apear to be gone, but I still have the ants - they are hanging out in the holes I poked yesterday. Are they still a problem or threat? It may have other issues as well. I've attached a pic to show 2 leaves - I don't know what is on them. Can someone please identify what's on each leaf?

Thanks for any help!

[Gnome]

Julie,

Yes the Ants are still a problem. Not so much for themselves but they will re-introduce the Aphids. It may seem odd but Ants actually farm Aphids in order to harvest their excretions.

Everybody says that Chinese Elms are easy but I've had nothing but trouble with mine. One big issue I've had is black spot fungus, which may be the issue with your leaves. I've all but given up on Chinese Elms due to this malady.

[Juliew]

Thanks Gnome. How do I get rid of the ants? Or is it not possible? Should I also go ahead and treat it for black spot fungus? Thanks!

[tomc]

Continue to spray to control aphids. The ants will move to a better neighborhood.

[Juliew]

Hi tomc - thank you, I will.

[tomc]

The ants are only there to pasture their aphids. They milk them for sugar-water.

[Gnome]

Should I also go ahead and treat it for black spot fungus?

You can try but once infected I've found it hard to get rid of. Remember, fungicides don't treat infected leaves but instead are used prophylactically.

[Juliew]

Thanks for the info tomc.

Thank you Gnome - I have been removing all of the leaves that are affected from the tree and the soil around the tree. I sprayed with a fungicide Friday morning, and there are more yellow/spotted leaves this morning. I will continue to remove these and any future leaves that may show signs of fungus. I hope this will help.

I appreciate the help!

[Gnome]

Glad to help, please keep us apprised.

[Juliew]

I have another question - my tree has now lost about 90% of its leaves. There is new growth, which seems like a good sign. With all that it's been through - aphids, ants, black spot mold, losing so many leaves, and the fact that it desperately needs repotting, would it be a good idea to fertilize it at this time? If so, what kind (I heard fish fertilizer is good), and how often?
Thanks again for all of your help!
Julie

[ElizabethB]

Juliew - since you live in central Florida with little or no winter I would go ahead and re-pot your tree. Use a large pot. 24" - and all purpose potting soil. Make sure you have good drainage. No pot saucer. Keep your transplant evenly moist - not soggy - for a month or 2. Until you have vigorous new growth. New growth is a sign that the root system has been established. Do not fertilize until spring. Let the roots get well established before pushing foliage growth.

Good luck

[Gnome]

It's always a tough call when/if to re-pot a tree in distress. Can you slip the root-ball from the pot in one lump? Let's have a look, can you post a few photos please?

[applestar]

Listen to gnome -- he'll know what to do. I just lurk in the bonsai forums and --very rarely-- post ideas and questions.

I'm just curious -- Are the ants gone? It sounded like maybe the ants could have set up shop IN the pot. Sometimes I see ants that have earmarked one of my containers for evacuation site when the ground is saturated by rain or irrigation water. They march up to where the container sits on a bench moving their household and babies then move back down to the ground when I suppose the scouts report all clear.

I also get this indoors during the late winter and as soon as the weather warms up, I plunge the pot in a tub of water and watch the ants scurry out. Adding a bit of soap to the water takes care of most of them except the ones that have taken refuge by climbing the plant. Once the floaters are dead and won't be climbing my arms, I take the pot and plant out and dunk the plant upside down in the soapy water and swish around, and that takes care of almost all of the rest.

Obviously do this when the plant needs to be watered.

[Juliew]

Thanks ElizabethB, Gnome, and applestar for your suggestions and help. I took the tree out of the pot (which was hard - the soil was really packed tight).

The big roots completely surround the inside of the pot, averaging 1/4"-1/2" in diameter. Lots of medium and smaller roots.

I tried taking the pics where I thought you could get a good idea of what's going on.

As far as bugs go, I believe the aphids and ants are gone. There may still be black spot mold, but I pull off leaves that look like they could be affected daily. I have also sprayed a fungicide on it a couple of times. What I do have is worms. I've found 3 so far, maybe a quarter-inch long, and a creamy white color. Don't know if he's a good guy or bad guy (pic included).

Since I have disturbed the soil a great deal already, what do you suggest I do next? If it makes a difference, I would like to keep it in the same pot.

After attaching the pics, I realized some are upside down - not sure if that means anything. Still getting used to adding them to my posts.

Thank you for your time and help!
Juliew

[Gnome]

Sorry, I did not mean that you should disturb it so much just yet, I just wanted some feel for what you are dealing with. It would have been better to have a proper bonsai soil on hand ahead of time. It's tucked back into the pot for now, right?

The retailer was right to suggest re-potting, the soil is inappropriate for bonsai. Please read this thread:
https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/vi ... =36&t=3422 You will need to get a hold of some better soil or your efforts will be for naught.

Yes, you can often re-use the same pot but that would necessitate substantial root pruning out of season. Under the current circumstances the pot is secondary to the recovery of the tree. Any type of pot with good drainage can be used for now. Try to find something that is just a little bigger than the roots if they were loosened slightly. Not too deep and of course with adequate drainage holes.

[Juliew]

Thanks for your response, Gnome. Right now I have the rootball wrapped in a damp (not wet) terry cloth towel. I will put it back in its pot with the soil it came with. I ordered a bonsai mix and will get it Friday. (I always seem to do things bass ackwards!)
To be clear, you're suggesting that I leave the roots alone, and repot it with the proper mix and place it in a little larger container with good drainage until it gets better. Is this correct?
I really hope I haven't signed its death warrant....
Once again, thanks for your help.
Julie

[Gnome]

Ideally you would be doing this work as the tree is coming out of dormancy in which case you would remove all of the old soil. This time of year What is commonly known as 'slip potting' is more appropriate.

Tease the roots a little, removing anything dead or mushy. When potting don't try too hard to retain the old soil, let the loose stuff fall away. Don't be too aggressive removing it either, that will have to wait for another time. Put some mix in the bottom of the pot (screen/s may be required) and seat the plant. Back fill with more mix, using a sharpened chopstick, or similar, to work the soil in around the roots.

Water the new planting in well, seriously, drench it, this will help to settle the soil. Don't put it in full sun right away.

[Juliew]

Thanks Gnome, I will do as you say. Hopefully it will pull through! I will post updates later.
I appreciate your assistance,
Juliew

[Juliew]

Update -
I followed your advice Gnome, and so far, so good. The tree wound up losing all of its leaves, but it now has a lot of leaf buds and new growth. It seems to be happy
The only thing I've noticed is that one side seems to have more new growth than the other side. I keep it on my back porch where it gets a lot of bright light, but no direct sunlight. Would the amount of light have anything to do with this?
I appreciate the helpful advice!
Thanks,
Julie

[Gnome]

Julie,

Glad to hear your tree is coming around, when I saw your post I was afraid it would be bad news. The unequal leaf growth could be due to low light or it could simply be that you will lose some branches from all the stress it has been through. Either way, slow and steady wins the race, no drastic changes for now. A slightly more exposed location would be preferable now. Be careful about the watering. Are you using the chopstick method?

BTW, the fungus I mentioned seems to effect new, tender growth more, try not to wet the foliage until it hardens off.

[Juliew]

Hi Gnome,
Yes, I am using the chopstick method - I wait until it is dry to the touch before watering. I'm very careful about not getting it on the leaves. Quick question - would it help to use a fungicide once every couple of weeks as a preventive measure?
Thanks so much,
Julie

[Gnome]

Julie,

would it help to use a fungicide once every couple of weeks as a preventive measure?

Yes, not only helpful but necessary. Fungicides are preventative not curative.

[Juliew]

Thanks Gnome!

[Juliew]

I've got yet another question
My elm appears to be doing well, especially on one side. So well in fact, it is growing long limbs. Should I trim these limbs now to keep its shape, or should I let it recuperate more first? I can attach a pic, but for some reason it is upside down when I try to upload it!
Any and all suggestions are appreciated!
Julie

[Gnome]

Julie,

Don't forget, bonsai is part horticulture and part art, Without the former the latter is not possible. The health of the plant must come first. Let it grow for now.

[Juliew]

Thanks Gnome -
I can always count on you for quick and excellent advice! Do I wait until it goes into dormancy? (Finally able to post a pic right-side up!)
Thanks again
Julie

[Gnome]

While my climate is very different from yours, putting me at a disadvantage, I doubt that it will enter full dormancy in your locale. It will probably slow down somewhat at that time of year though. Why don't you ask the nurseryman it was purchased from. Local advice will prove invaluable.

[Juliew]

Thanks Gnome - unfortunately I bought it online and it was shipped from California. I know; really bad idea. However there is a local bonsai dealer whom I can ask.

[Gnome]

Sorry, earlier you mentioned a local retailer, I assumed that you purchased it there. If everything is still OK, you should be able to do some selective thinning soon. By that I mean rather than shear the whole thing remove entire shoots that are too crowded, growing inward or downward.

Here is a link that should help to decide what to remove:
https://www.evergreengardenworks.com/rules.htm

There is much good information on Brent's article page.