Buy an Elm Bonsai?

[kenb]

now.. will this soil composition hold the tree in the pot fairly well? I just don't want it to blow out if there are strong winds.. I protect it from most of the wind.. but sometimes it gets rough around here

[Gnome]

Ken,

You Wrote:

I will let it experience a few frosts and bring it in around thanksgiving.. now when I bring it in.. should I bring it inside inside.. or into an unheated garage until spring?

Previously I wrote:

You have options on how you are going to manage it. This in turn will influence other decisions. For instance, if you are going to allow it to go dormant then you are off the hook, so to speak, until spring. On the other hand, if you are considering bringing it indoors for the winter it is time to consider re-potting (assuming it is still in the field soil) and supplemental lighting.

And:

Being that it is a sub-tropical it can be handled either way, or so they say.

They can be handled either way. I can't tell you what to do with your tree, but I allow mine to go dormant. If you are going to allow it to go dormant do not re-pot until spring. Re-pot this fall only if you intend to bring it inside your home during the winter and allow it to leaf out. This is essentially a second spring.

will this soil composition hold the tree in the pot fairly well? I just don't want it to blow out if there are strong winds..

No, especially not at first. After a time the soil will settle somewhat and become more stable but most bonsai are wired into their pots.
[img]https://forum.bonsaitalk.com/yabbuserpic/25_P2204235.jpg[/img]

Norm

[kenb]

I was hoping to maybe bring it inside for this winter.. but next winter let it go dormant.. I'm not asking you to tell me what to do with my tree.. I am just trying to make an informed decision from you guys who have been doing this for awhile..

if I let it stay inside this winter.. I won't have any problems letting it go dormant next year will I?

[ynot]

if I let it stay inside this winter.. I won't have any problems letting it go dormant next year will I?

Nope .

ynot

[kenb]

sweet.. I am going to keep it outside until around thanksgiving and bring it inside and put it in a big picture window.. keep it misted and properly watered.. I am going to purchase that potting mix that gnome recommended.. takes the guessing out of it! can I pot my juniper in that as well? I am going to repot just before I bring it inside with the new mix....


here are the photos.. I just got the tree today... I love it.. but I was able to pick it up and the entire contents of the pot came up with it.. see attached photos.. I watered it throughly and took lots of pictures

I have it currently on my screened in back porch.. it gets alot of light in the morning and some direct sun. and shade after that



[img]https://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h265/kenbarto/elmbonsaiandlukefieldtrip027.jpg[/img]
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[img]https://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h265/kenbarto/elmbonsaiandlukefieldtrip016.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h265/kenbarto/elmbonsaiandlukefieldtrip015.jpg[/img]


there was wire that I removed.. as you can see in the pics..

let me know what you guys think.. let me know what you think about the health.. if I need to send it back? thanks alot again guys!!

[Gnome]

Ken,

The foliage is a little sparse and there are more yellow leaves than I would like but I see nothing that makes me think it is in any danger or in ill health. It is also obviously root-bound and when it is re-potted it should respond with fresh growth.

Please read this, paying particular attention to the remarks concerning low light levels.
[url]https://www.evergreengardenworks.com/indoors.htm[/url]

This is one case where I would recommend that you water this tree by immersion occasionally. It is so root-bound that water may not penetrate to the center of the root mass especially if it is in the type of soil that I suspect it is.

Try to get it in good shape before cold weather sets in and growth slows. Good light, proper watering and fertilizing will be required. Have you done any reading on root pruning and re-potting?
[url]https://www.evergreengardenworks.com/rootprun.htm[/url]
[url]https://www.bonsai4me.com/Basics/Basics_Repotting1.html[/url]
Make sure to follow the links to the second and third page of the bonsai4me link.

Norm

[kenb]

on the fertilizing.. should I use a 10 10 10? I was at home depot the other day and was reading the back of some of the plant foods.. and I found some that had the 10 10 10.. and I have read or remember seeing that you should use a 10 10 10 on bonsai.. is that true?

I have read some articles and the stickys here about root pruning.. it will be a task for me.. but I can handle it and if not.. I know where to go and ask

I am going to purchase the potting mix that you gave me the link for.. I am going to wait until about thanksgiving and repot it then with the new mix and prune the roots.. then bring it indoors for its first winter with me.. when I watered it today.. I did it 3 times just to make sure that it was saturated.. I picked it up out of the pot and it was wet all the way through even in the center.. so I will keep checking up on it..

I put it on my back porch because it comes out of the pot with little effort.. and I don't want to come home from work and find it blown out of the pot on a windy day.. I am hoping that where I have it will be ok until it gets really cold out and I can do what needs to be done..

I feel like I have dove into the art of bonsai head first.. 2 trees quickly.. and no real experience.. I just hope that I don't kill the wonderful trees

[Gnome]

Ken,

should I use a 10 10 10?

The 10-10-10 will be fine, there are other options but for now it may be best not to complicate things any more. Make sure that you follow the directions. Do not mix it stronger or weaker than suggested. Do not apply it too often, about every two weeks should be OK.

I put it on my back porch because it comes out of the pot with little effort.. and I don't want to come home from work and find it blown out of the pot on a windy day.

I would like to see it out in the sun if possible. You could put some light weight wire or twine around the pot in order to stabilize the root-ball.

Norm

[kenb]

I actually got up early this morning and put some wire around the pot to keep the tree and contents in the pot and put it out where it will get full sun!

gnome.. how is your elm coming along?

[Gnome]

Ken,

gnome.. how is your elm coming along?

The image it presents now is much the same as the one a month ago. The thread grafts have thickened a bit more and everything has lengthened somewhat as well. It would probably be hard to discern a difference from a photo though. I'll probably post one more picture of it this year before I store it away for the winter.

I had to move it today. The sun is lower in the sky than in mid-summer and although the weather is fair my bench is not getting as much sun as I would like right now.

Norm

[kenb]

YEP... I had to do the same thing with my trees.. had to move them farther out on the porch for more sun!

[kenb]

gnome...

from putting it outside in the direct sun.. all of the yellow leaves are gone.. they fell off and what didn't fall off I just touched and the dropped.. now the other leaves are still good.. none of them are brittle and they won't fall off..

I also removed the moss that was growing on the top of the soil mix.. it was so much easier to water it that way


I think that I am going to get a few foam coolers and get some fine mulch.. put the pots in the coolers and then pack mulch around the pot to keep them from freezing this winter..

I am still debating on whether or not to let it go through the first few frosts and then repot it and bring it indoors like a second spring..

is there a certain amount of time that I need to leave it dormant if I decide to do that? bring it back inside that is..

[Gnome]

Ken,

is there a certain amount of time that I need to leave it dormant if I decide to do that? bring it back inside that is..

In all honesty, I don't know. As I've noted I handle mine as deciduous trees.

Since they're not temperate and don't require a specific dormancy like say a Maple or Juniper they are probably a lot more flexible in this regard.

Norm

[kenb]

ok... the only reason I am debating that is because I would like to repot it as soon as possible and trim some of the roots so that it isn't so root bound. I am buying the soil composition that you gave me a link to.. I believe it is 9 quarts.. that should last me quite a while with only having 2 trees right? I should be able to pot my juniper in that as well?


thanks again for the help Norm.. I appreciate it!

[Gnome]

Ken,

I believe it is 9 quarts.. that should last me quite a while with only having 2 trees right?

That depends on the size of your pots and when you are going to re-pot. They offer it in 4 and 20 Qt batches but 9 seemed the most appropriate.

I should be able to pot my juniper in that as well?

Yes it should be fine. My Juniper is in a nearly inorganic mix with only about 10% bark. Since they don't give any ratios it is hard to say exactly what it will be like. From looking at your pictures I'm not convinced that the Juniper will need re-potting next year but that is a question for another time and another thread.

I would like to re-pot it as soon as possible and trim some of the roots so that it isn't so root bound.

Your desire to re-pot soon is understandable but you have to let the tree dictate the timing, not simply what you 'would like' It is root-bound but this is not a cause for great concern in the short term. You have to learn patience with bonsai. An ill timed re-potting could spell disaster for your new tree. Slow down and let it be a tree for a while, don't fuss with it and move it about it already has already been stressed recently.

Norm

[kenb]

oh.. I know.. I am not going to repot now.. but I was thinking about after the frost sets in.. I would bring it inside and repot and trim roots.. but I might just wait until spring to repot in the new mix and prune some roots also!

[kenb]

hi guys... do you know when the leaves will start to turn and fall on chinese elm? I know it has alot to do with the weather.. just curious.

[alexinoklahoma]

oh.. I know.. I am not going to repot now.. but I was thinking about after the frost sets in.. I would bring it inside and repot and trim roots.. but I might just wait until spring to repot in the new mix and prune some roots also!

Only *one* repot/root-trim this Fall/Spring, not both, not ever If you let it go dormant, then do the repot when, and not before, you let it 'wake-up' from the nap (weeks+ later usually). Just to be crystal-clear for you Kind of sounded like you might've meant two repots...

The date/timing of dormancy is hugely affected by shortening days with cooling temps, other seasonal changes as well. It varies wildly, even regionally, and if you could accurately predict that date/week, you could become rich probably, LOL. Getting an 'average-date' usually gets awareness high enough that you should be ready for it, IME.

Alex

[kenb]

I meant that I was only going to repot and trim roots once..

I think that I am going to let the tree go dormant for about 6 weeks and bring it inside for the remainder of the winter months.. after it starts to come out of dormancy I will trim the roots and repot it with the new mix.. come may after the frost is gone..I will put it back outside

[alexinoklahoma]

Sounds like a winning plan. Make sure to familiarize yourself w/ how to pinch-back new growths for tight internodes and smaller/denser foliage patterns as you'll want to be able to start that soon after repotting to help thicken the 'pads' of canopies - but only if its understood well, that is Assume nothing, OK?

There's a *lot* of potential in that tree (and I like it, fwiw), but it would be really easy to overdo something and cause near-irrepairable harm.... (I really see that Elm being only ~1/3 that height w/ a few more chops for tapering, IMO, but whatever, right? To each their own for 'style'...)

And when it is time to put 'em back outside, make sure to acclimate all trees into full-sun over a period of a few days to weeks. They can 'burn' if placed into sun full-time without slowly building up the times outdoors beforehand...

Alex

[kenb]

thanks alex! good advice!

[kenb]

we are steadily having temps in the 40's during the day and last night got down to around 25 deg F. both trees seem to be doing ok.. but the elm still has green leaves on it.. shouldn't they have changed by now? Almost all the trees in my yard have changed and dropped mostly all of the leaves. Is this normal? I am going to dig a hole in the yard this weekend and put both of the trees in the foam box I made and put mulch over them.. just nervous..

[alexinoklahoma]

Fwiw, the weather here is ~20f above normal, and its supposed to be near 80'sf all week. Trees ae freaking, and some American Elms are even putting out next year's leaves *now*. Happened last year as well, and I wonder how many years the trees can handle such 'weather-abuse'? Makes for interesting 'climate-models' at the least. It froze overnight a few nights ago, and a lot of leaves were 'damaged' (so what, right?) and now the plants want to replace the damaged ones with next years' buds, IMO.

Your plan sounds right as a sudden cold-snap that *stays* cold can spell havoc for things unprotected, IMO. Better safe than 'sorry', 'eh?!

Alex

[kenb]

I don't like my trees screwing with my mind! I am way too new at this to have them doing that. I guess I will have to wait and see what happens!

[alexinoklahoma]

Welcome to the world of growing trees unnaturally (potted, per se), LOL! And with climate being a bit different lately, it makes all the more frustrating. Its gonna be close to 80f today, and in-ground stuff (of several various species) is putting out next year's foliage already. Not good.

Alex

[kenb]

yeah.. we had abnormally warmer temps through most of october.. but they dropped quickly at the end of the month and are staying cold now. it really sucks for me because I work for a utility company (lineman) and work outdoors all year round. it is a edited to keep clothes for 80deg weather with -30deg weather at the same time ready to use

putting the trees in the ground today.. I should put holes in the bottom of the foam for draining right? I have a humidity tray for the juniper but not for the elm. do I have to have one for the elm during this winter? or will something happen to it?

thanks for the help Alex! you really know your stuff!

Ken

[alexinoklahoma]

Yes, holes in bottom of styrofoam - ya do not want *any* water 'pooling' anywhere - ever Any deciduous tree (like elm) does not require much of anything when 'asleep'.

A bit confused on humidity tray..you mean for in-ground/buried-pot things?? If so, not at all. Any evergreen slows waaaaay down when its really cold, and just a tad when its 'moderately cold, no humidity tray ever needed outside in winter - just be sure to not overwater the evergreen(s), sometimes only needed *maybe* once a month (just check once a week maybe - even if just to say "hi-how are ya?" to the trees, LOL).

On further thought, you may be better off removing the entire bottom of the 'foam' box - you *will* get warmth from Mother Earth into the box this way. In Winter, Earth *will* warm things upon it (think igloo here - does not get below freezing in there, and ground is actually warmer than the air (right??)) Even permafrost above Arctic Circle only goes so far down! The issue you are combatting is the cold that would be going into the pot from above-ground sides and especially from above - cold air 'drops/sinks', remember? You will also not have to worry about water pooling and/or freezing within pot(s) this way. Make sense?

In a way, I feel you are kinda overthinking this a bit, but I fully understand your 'nervousness'. Trust Mother Earth here - she's been keeping roots warm a loooong time, 'eh?! A survivalist's first rule of staying 'warm/un-frozen' when stranded in ~Arctic conditions? Get underground! So....just get the roots/soil underground & covered, my friend - and the juniper is practically freeze-proof on above-ground growths, fwiw. Think of the stuff that lives on bare rock way up high on mountain-tops and gets VERY old while doing so - Mother Earth is there for 'em!

One more thing: thank you for being 'out there' taking care of power when all of us gripe, whine, and moan endlessly when lights go out from ice-storms or such. You do not have the option of 'going underground', LOL!! Seriously, *I* appreciate ya, and all of your cohorts - please pass it on, OK?

HTH,
Alex

[kenb]

thanks Alex.. there aren't alot of people out there that have any concept as to what all is involved in providing (service to customers). Most are just happy to shoot first and ask ?'s later A utility infrastructure is quite an undertaking that is backbreaking and dangerous. Many people have died on the job to provide customers with the things they take for granted like.. electricity, phone.. dsl.. ect..

again thanks alot!

darn temp today was 60 deg F.. wtf!

[alexinoklahoma]

We ran A/C here today. In frig*** mid-November! At least am not having to start paying for Natural Gas yet, LOL!

You keep your butt safe 'up there', please, Ken. I have CT'd/X-rayed one too many folks that did not think they neededthat safety-strap hooked up Never met someone stronger or smarter than *gravity*, haha. Humpty Dumpty fall down....

My issue(s) with elec companies are never with the 'help', its those darned overpaid underworked admin people. My local 'co-op' intentionally refuses to provide large-print bills/anything relevant to such for my legally-blind wife who takes care of most 'financials'. Rural-service part of USDA is all over this currently I am hoping they lose their ability to get the loans they so depend on to purchase elec 'units'!!! I have them denying/refusing such request(s) with impunity (and even laughing at myself and wife for her blindness (grrrr!!) from myself & her in writing, verbally (taped conversations), and refusing to answer multiple e-mails , from the 'clerks at front counter to the head-honcho himself - oops, caught red-handed lying in multi-documented ways. They (Canadian Valley Co-Op of Seminole, Oklahoma) are guilty as guilty can be, and they know it - it was so nice to send them a copy of the original complaint which shut their arrogant butts up VERY fast, hehehe. B*st*rds...pardon my Fr*n*h. I am also telling everyone they associate with about their hatred of handicapped persons, including the minister of the churches most of them attend. Did not go over well with their church leaders, I bet, when they read of their 'customers' being so prejudiced against the 'meek'. And these are folks that played 'preaching' tapes loudly from their offices everytime I was within the main office-building. What hypocrites, IMO. Small towns and such gossip/news mix very well I won't speak to the local newspaper about it just yet as I want more info from the 'investigation' so it can be more fully revealed as to the extent of the harm they inflict upon such persons. Sorry for the rant, but elec companies except for those doing the grunt-stuff (the real work involved), of course, can be rather irritating at times, LOL and certainly less important than they make themselves out to be most often, IME.

Appreciatively,
Alex