tommywing
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Tommywing's Chinese Elm

Hi All,

I am aware I already have a 2 page thread on here about one tree, however this was £10 reduced from £30 so I had to get it!

I have pruned the obvious bits, and have cut back to the small leaves as I have read, watered it properly etc and have killed two flies that seemed to be living on it.

Now. The first branch up on the right had a long branch that I clipped to expose the curvature of the trunk. Now it looks good to me, but my question, which is open to everyone and I appreciate hearing your thoughts, is what would you do next?

https://img119.imageshack.us/img119/8881/img1887qg8.jpg

thanks

Tommywing

ynot
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Re: Tommywing's Chinese Elm


I am aware I already have a 2 page thread on here about one tree, however this was £10 reduced from £30 so I had to get it!
8) :D8)
I have pruned the obvious bits, and have cut back to the small leaves as I have read, watered it properly etc and have killed two flies that seemed to be living on it.
The soil looks to be terrible [Appears possibly very peat based & is very fine particles at any rate.]. :mad:

Seasonally, It is too late to do anything about it but that would be my first priority for next spring.
Now. The first branch up on the right had a long branch that I clipped to expose the curvature of the trunk. Now it looks good to me, but my question, which is open to everyone and I appreciate hearing your thoughts, is what would you do next?
With better pictures some virts would be possible, [url=https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3557]See these photo tips.[/url] 8)

A quick question: Are you looking to have a rounded full canopy or something more 'informal upright' with distinctive foliage pads?

ynot

tommywing
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Hi Ynot

I thought the soil was pretty rubbish too, it's the same on my Serrisa, but I'll deal with that in spring.

I will take better snaps, so I can see some masterpieces of graphic design.

I think a rounded canopy would be nice, I'm trying to ascertain which would suit the tree better.

Tommywing

ynot
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tommywing wrote:Hi Ynot
Oi!
I thought the soil was pretty rubbish too, it's the same on my Serrisa, but I'll deal with that in spring.
Yeah, It is shameful the soil people will sell their trees in :shakes head sadly:...On the other hand, Spring projects are good :D 8)!
I will take better snaps, so I can see some masterpieces of graphic design.
:lol: Yes, I would be interested in these 'masterpieces' also... Let me know when & where they are posted ;)
I think a rounded canopy would be nice, I'm trying to ascertain which would suit the tree better.
Ok, Like a big old mushroom effect...Or something else?

ynot

tommywing
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The branches at the top of the tree are sort of stepped, like a spiral staircase on the left hand side of the tree, I quite like this feature.

I also like the trees with a large canopy, then a single mass emerging through it, sort of like the elm on this website:

https://www.tomsvariety.com/bonsai.htm

But oviously bigger.

Perhaps some smaps of the branch formation would help?

I don't fancy anything too drastic, as it is quite pretty as it is.

ynot
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tommywing wrote:The branches at the top of the tree are sort of stepped, like a spiral staircase on the left hand side of the tree, I quite like this feature.
Understood, Sort of a 'happy medium mixture' of the first two options I mentioned.
I also like the trees with a large canopy, then a single mass emerging through it, sort of like the elm on this website:
Ah, Ok but hopefully more ramified and filled out than that one - I can do that.

Perhaps some smaps of the branch formation would help?
For virts just straight on well lit w/ a plain background is fine. To explain your goals they may be helpful. They may or may not be useful within the virt...

If you want to include additional pics [Only helpful if from the same perspective obviously] with added graphics of what you would prefer to be removed or added:
['Add open Space here' or 'extend this' or 'remove that'... Directions like that can be really helpful if it's specific and clear.
I don't fancy anything too drastic, as it is quite pretty as it is.
Wrings hands together...:twisted: Oh I can get drastic.. But no trees have been injured during the virtual process...So far :P ;)

ynot

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Tommywing,

I generally try not to be too harsh in critiquing trees here, partly because we have a lot of people new to bonsai and I feel that these early trees are useful learning tools and being too critical can turn some people off. Also I am still struggling with the artistic aspects myself.

For your Elm, consider the portion below the first branch in relation to the portion above it. I see some definite reverse taper, a situation where the trunk thickens instead of thinning. The trunk should reduce in girth from the bottom to the top.

If there is enough room to do so, an air layer might solve this problem and give you two pieces of material to work with. I suspect that there may not really be enough room to do this though. Another option is to allow one, or more, low branches to grow unchecked for several years. This serve to thicken the trunk below the branches. They can be quite long and will be unattractive during this process.

Norm

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Tommywing,

Here is a virt that shows what I was thinking of. Certainly not a "masterpiece of graphic design"

[url=https://img296.imageshack.us/my.php?image=elmvirtlr5.jpg][img]https://img296.imageshack.us/img296/4890/elmvirtlr5.th.jpg[/img][/url]

The base would also be retained and would then have proper taper. These are just ideas to be discussed.

Norm

tommywing
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Hi Norm,

Thanks for the advice, I see what you mean about the taper on the trunk, however I don't understand how you would achieve what you show in your virt.

Are you suggesting air layering the first branch on the right and then growing that into a tree like the one you showed?

Thanks

Tom

gnome80
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back again

Well I'm back again to cause confusion again ;)

No this is not Gnome, but gnome80 aka David


I just saw this post and decided to ask one nice last question (I doubt it).

I also just got (kidnapped) my mates Chinese ELM, which has very bad soil and was very root bound (Damn stores abuse these poor plants).


My Q is what soil would best go with a nice (young) ELM?

I'll make some pics soon, It's a very nice tree.

tommywing
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I have a suspicioun mine is also root bound and in cack soil, so please elt me know what you use!

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well mine (my mates) is like stated earlier in the post very peat based & has very fine particles.

IT absorbs alot of watter in one time and gets very moist, but if u try and submerge, most dirt come up and everything falls to pieces.
(Once again shops who don't take good care of a Bonsai before selling it anger me).

My Zelkova had the same problem, but that one was saved in time and is growing very nice.


Only I'm kinda hesitant to use the same soil and pot arrangement (not the same pot) as i did with my Zelly. Hence the question.

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Re: back again

gnome80,

Please visit the links I posted to you as well as the stickys suggested by Gnome in your previous thread.
[ https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=26467&highlight=#26467 ]

Had you done that as suggested you would have noticed that these two questions [among many many others ] are specifically addressed there.

IE:
gnome80 wrote:
My Q is what soil would best go with a nice (young) ELM?
From the soil sticky:
In the soil sticky ynot wrote:As you study these links you will find a wealth of experience and opinions. They may differ slightly but each is working for that persons environment.
This is a key issue to address. Often people ask 'What is the best soil mix for [Random tree type]?' This question has as many different answers as there are variables [and people] involved in bonsai itself.


Factors to consider when choosing a soil mix
Species/Age/Development of the tree, Location [Both geographic and wrt indoors or out.], Schedule [Some materials break down quicker than others.], Personal Schedule [Some people use a more organic water retentive mix as they have less time in their schedule to attend to watering, Use caution w/ this approach.], Materials available [Not all soil components are universally available, There are plenty of other options] Budget, etc...


With so many factors, It's no wonder there is no 'perfect soil.'
gnome80 wrote:IT absorbs alot of watter in one time and gets very moist, but if u try and submerge, most dirt come up and everything falls to pieces.
This is from the watering article on Bonsai4 me that you had been directed to previously:
Harry Harrington wrote: Some bonsai sources willl recommend watering a bonsai by immersing the bonsai pot in water for a while. This is not a recommended way of watering your trees.{The emphasis is his}
Please RE-read your previous thread and the forum stickys and do follow the links provided as well as there is a wealth of information presented in your last thread.
The above info was suggested by Gnome & I in our first posts each [respectively] to you because it is relevant and important.

It is very frustrating that it is not being utilized [Much less it need be repeated] and that makes it ineffective to say the least.

ynot

gnome80
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Hhhmmm It seems that I have been missunderstood here.

I have seen and been and read all the links provided and do remember all that was stated.

The submerging wasnt meant as in watering but just to give and idea of how poor the soil was and to give and idea how bad the tree was taken care of. (Bowing in respect and saying sorry for my poor explanation)

I;m planning on saving the tree by repotting it in better soil, thus the question in this thread cause Tommy's tree looks and seems axact the same as the one I;m talking about.

The question was for advice from you guys as in what type (not brand or anything) of soil would be your thought.

The standard info linked wasnt enough for this case.

My Zelkova on the other hand was helped perfect because I knew al the required info.

ANyway long story short not to cause any further upset, I'll go get a lamp and do some night reading and compare the links and some books.


(Kneels and Begs for mercy)

David

tommywing
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I will happily admit that in the past I have skim read some of the info provided, decide that my question isn't answered and then ask a question in a forum, only to have it highlighted for me in something I didn't actually read!

People get post happy, and lets face it, lazy, and that makes the people with the info fume!

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gnome80 wrote:Hhhmmm It seems that I have been missunderstood here.

I have seen and been and read all the links provided and do remember all that was stated.

The submerging wasnt meant as in watering but just to give and idea of how poor the soil was and to give and idea how bad the tree was taken care of. (Bowing in respect and saying sorry for my poor explanation)
Misunderstood ~ Yes because the only info I have to go on is what you state - Not what you mean. Understand that using the submersion demonstrates primarily bad care not bad soil when the intent is far from clear.

I am glad you have been reading and stand up straight, Mr Miyagi is NOT in the room.:roll:
The question was for advice from you guys as in what type (not brand or anything) of soil would be your thought.
I am not trying to be dense here but...What do you mean by 'type'? Proper bonsai soil.
The standard info linked wasnt enough for this case.
Straightforward questions please - I will do my best.

ANyway long story short not to cause any further upset, I'll go get a lamp and do some night reading and compare the links and some books.
Look, When you don't appear to have read it - I treat you as though you have not read it [But should have].
It is not an upsetting drama and the bold is for emphasis, It is that simple.
(Kneels and Begs for mercy)
:roll: This is not Shogun[img]https://www.mysmilie.de/english/green/smilies/angry/3/img/010.gif[/img].
tommywing wrote: I will happily admit that in the past I have skim read some of the info provided, decide that my question isn't answered and then ask a question in a forum, only to have it highlighted for me in something I didn't actually read!
Sure, Everybody misses stuff :shrug:. That is not why this happened though...:arrow:Moving on.
tommywing wrote: People get post happy, and lets face it, lazy, and that makes the people with the info fume!
True, Although :lol: I get post-UN-happy ;) [img]https://www.mysmilie.de/english/green/smilies/cheeky/2/img/028.gif[/img]

ynot

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Ynot,


Ok i understand.

I have and still am reading every and anything you guys have posted.

I always take advice and opinion from others to heart and listen and follow them when needed and that is why I asked here for your (Ynot and Gnome's) advice for the soil.

The type in my question was meant as in fine to coarse. size of grain. In expirience what would best suited a small young chinese Elm like Tommy's.

Altho I still cant plainly explain all what I mean, next time I'll do better.

Cheers

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Tommywing,
Thanks for the advice, I see what you mean about the taper on the trunk, however I don't understand how you would achieve what you show in your virt.

Are you suggesting air layering the first branch on the right and then growing that into a tree like the one you showed?

What I have done in the virtual is to remove (layer) the straight section that I mentioned being too thick in relation to the part below it. I then "cheated" in that I re-used the base of the tree. In reality you would leave the roots and the right branch intact which then becomes it's own plant.

I don't know if you are familiar with air layering, I'm not even sure that you have enough room to do this. I was just sort of thinking out loud.

Norm

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gnome80 wrote:Ynot,
Ok I understand.
Glad to hear it 8) & do try not to read me too seriously...lol

I have and still am reading every and anything you guys have posted.
Ok, But get info elsewhere also. Overdose on info my man :D.
I always take advice and opinion from others to heart and listen and follow them when needed and that is why I asked here for your (Ynot and Gnome's) advice for the soil.

The type in my question was meant as in fine to coarse. size of grain. In expirience what would best suited a small young chinese Elm like Tommy's.
Understood, I do not use fine particles at all, Never, In no bonsai case whatsoever. There is my opinion on that. :)
Altho I still cant plainly explain all what I mean, next time I'll do better.

Cheers
Give it a shot

BTW - Here is a thread about why well draining larger particle soil is more appropriate for bonsai that may be of help to you [Or not ] :https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3530

ynot

tommywing
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here is an update of how my tree is progressing.

I am trying to create four clumps of growth around the centre, which I will try and make taller than the rest.

As you can see someone has chopped the trunk in the past, presumably to make another tree, I'm trying to promote as much rwoth around this as possible.

Snaps are still pretty dump, but they're purely demonstative!

https://img513.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img1954mu4.jpg

https://img154.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img1955dv2.jpg

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Tommywing,

The Elm looks like it is doing well. Glad to hear that you are having better luck with this one.

Norm

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It certainly seems to be healthier, and is growing plenty of new shoots. I'm trying to root some of the branch cuttings as well, I was wondering how long to expect it to take for roots to appear, any ideas?

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Tommywing,
I was wondering how long to expect it to take for roots to appear, any ideas?
You just have to play it by ear. When/if new growth appears they are probably rooted but don't go messing about with them. The new rootlets are very delicate and easily damaged. In reality either they will die or they will root. Are you using rooting hormone?

By the way if you are lucky enough to get a new shoot below the reverse taper do not remove it or prune it back. By allowing such a branch to grow unrestricted for a few years you can begin to correct the reverse taper. It will be unsightly during the process but sometimes you have to go back before you can go forward.

Norm

tommywing
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Hi,

I am using rooting hormone yes, all the leaves on the cuttings are beginning to dry out, I was just after a rought estimate, i.e. weeks, months or years.

I am basically leaving all growth on the tree to grow as much as it can until it enters the space of another part of the tree, I will keep an eye out for shoots below the taper, but I don't see what they'd do?

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Tommywing,
I was just after a rought estimate, I.e. weeks, months or years.
OK then, weeks.
all the leaves on the cuttings are beginning to dry out,
Frequent misting will help. I have also kept cuttings under glass until they root.
I will keep an eye out for shoots below the taper, but I don't see what they'd do?
This is known as a sacrifice branch, it is an important technique for thickening the trunk or even branches of bonsai. Every branch serves to thicken the portion of the trunk that lies below it. By allowing one or more branches to grow in the area that needs to be thickened they will eventually increase the thickness of the trunk in that area. The sacrifice branches are allowed unrestricted growth for a period of time and then are removed, thus the term "sacrifice". It may take several branches, over a period of years to correct the flaw.

Norm

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