New Chinese Elm, think I need help

[DanielSan]

Hi guys hope you can help,

I recently bought a chinese elm from a garden centre.

All seemed well, looked healthy enough, couple of yellowing leaves here and there but nothing major really.

I signed up for the forum here and I watered the bonsai as directed, soaking it until water came from the drainage, leaving it to soak in and then rewatering, everything seems fine. I should mention that it was very dry when I got it, when you lift the plant, the soil is still attached in a square shaped mass that looks to have quite a few roots in it.

It is in front of 2 large glass patio doors that let loads of light in and like I said I think I am watering it right.

The problem is, even though it is blatantly growing (I see new shoots every few days) It seems to be losing between 5 & 10 leaves a day through yellowing.

I'll take pictures and post them here, does anyone think I am watering it too much / too little? or does it need repotted - or is leaf loss normal?


Pics, please forgive my apalling photography skills :/

https://suprfile.com/src/1/7o8f81o/bonsai1.jpg
https://suprfile.com/src/1/7o8g00f/bonsai2.jpg
https://suprfile.com/src/1/7o8hsy5/bonsai3.jpg < bit dark, sorry
https://suprfile.com/src/1/7o8jpuq/soil.jpg
https://suprfile.com/src/1/7o8jwzd/soil2.jpg

Any suggestions? Thanks

[ynot]

DS,

Welcome to the forum.

All seemed well, looked healthy enough, couple of yellowing leaves here and there but nothing major really.

I signed up for the forum here and I watered the bonsai as directed, soaking it until water came from the drain, leaving it to soak in and then rewatering, everything seems fine. I should mention that it was very dry when I got it, when you life the plant, the soil is still attached in a square shaped mass that looks to have quite a few roots in it.

Take a picture of the root system please.

It is in front of 2 large glass patio doors that let loads of light in and Like I said I think I am watering it right.

Your tree would be happier outside, All trees naturally live outside.

The problem is, even though it is blatantly growing (I see new shoots every few days) It does at the same time seem to be losing between 5 & 10 leaves a day through yellowing.

I'll take pictures and post them here, does anyone think I am watering it too much / too little? or does it need repotted - or is leaf loss normal?

You did not mention how long you have had it nor how often [roughly] you water.

Yellowing leaves are a common sign of over watering, Do remember that your tree has less transpiration with fewer leaves so it will be utilizing less water. Tell us a bit about how you determine when to water as you should only be watering when it requires it.

You are watering from the top [Not submersion] correct?
Have you read the stickys at the top of the forum?

Thanks, pics should be up in a sec,

Photo tips are here:https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3557

Let us know .

Get inspired by some beautiful bonsai: See [url=https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3343]here.[/url]

ynot

[DanielSan]

Thanks for having a look, I'll try to take a better pic of the roots.

To determine if it needs watering I have been getly pushing a cocktail stick into the soil to see if its is damp below the dry surface, if its still quite moist then I leave it but if its dry I water. I did read the stickies but that was a week ago when I registered / bought the plant. I'll have another look.

I water with a mister / spray bottle. I have watered it about 3 times since I bought it.

thos photos are junk I'll take some more, I'm almost ashamed, I'm a better photographer than that!!!

[DanielSan]

Better pics

https://suprfile.com/src/1/7o9070m/Bonsai_01.jpg
https://suprfile.com/src/1/7o90uwk/Bonsai_02.jpg
https://suprfile.com/src/1/7o92s9r/Bonsai_04.jpg
https://suprfile.com/src/1/7o94fme/Bonsai_07.jpg
https://suprfile.com/src/1/7o961i4/Bonsai_08.jpg
https://suprfile.com/src/1/7o96j3m/Bonsai_09.jpg
https://suprfile.com/src/1/7o98x9s/Bonsai_10.jpg

[ynot]

Thank you for the pictures:D

You edited your pictures in after I posted I just got through looking at them.

Misting is not an effective method to water your tree - More on that in a moment.

It appears to me that the bottom of the pot is BONE dry [Which would apply to the bottom portion of the soil as well]...Is that accurate?

If so BEFORE you reply:
Read the third paragraph in the watering section and apply what it says there.
https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1479

While it is soaking take a good look at your soil and then compare it to the pictures of the soil used by members that are listed in this thread: https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3422

Let me know if you spot any differences.

I am replying to the rest of post in a moment.

ynot

[DanielSan]

Misting is not an effective method to water your tree - More on that in a moment.

I wouldnt say I mist it, its not really on the 'mist' setting if you get me...

It appears to me that the bottom of the pot is BONE dry [Which would apply to the bottom portion of the soil as well]...Is that accurate?

I had a feel of it there, I wouldt desfribe it as bone dry, although it isnt exactly moist, slightly damp I'd say..... fairly open to debate that though
[/quote]

Let me know if you spot any differences.

Any differences?? haha! I see your point, will have to look into that a bit more!

I look forward to your other comments, cheers.

quick edit - think the old tesco cat litter solution would be suitable for my lil tree? please say yes!!

[ynot]

[Sorry for being so brief but I am multi-tasking and there is a long reply on the way..]
{EDIT: Actually, We covered much of my intended topics bit by bit.....So no need.}

I wouldnt say I mist it, its not really on the 'mist' setting if you get me...

Still ineffective,

This is from the article on watering you just read a portion of:

Water the entire surface of your tree until the water drains freely from the bottom of the pot, wait for about 10-15 minutes and repeat. Some even recommend a third watering, and if you have the time and are so inclined it certainly will not hurt. You will never over water your trees in this way. Correct watering is not about the quantity of water used but the frequency with which it is applied. The goal of watering is to completely saturate the soil each time you water, repeating only as necessary. A little water often is the wrong approach.

Would the green equate to your watering?

More in a while:)

Oh, About Tescos - I do not know as we do not have tescos here, I know it was suitable and this article suggests it https://www.bonsai4me.com/Basics/Basicscatlitter.htm
Read his articles also https://www.bonsai4me.com/Basics.html

ynot

[DanielSan]

Yeah that is correct although its difficult because the soil is so compacted it often runs down the sides making it difficult to tell when to stop....

[ynot]

Yeah that is correct although its difficult because the soil is so compacted it often runs down the sides making it difficult to tell when to stop....

Yeah, That is why you repeat it . As it says a complete soaking is the goal every time you water.

You may want to take a look at the sticky at the top of the forum that is about soil and re-potting...

Oh, Also check out this thread for some bonsai inspiration, You might see some jaw-dropping stuff: https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3343

ynot

[ynot]

To determine if it needs watering I have been getly pushing a cocktail stick into the soil to see if its is damp below the dry surface, if its still quite moist then I leave it but if its dry I water.

An alternate approach would be to simply leave a [wooden chopstick or similar IE skewer] in the pot all the time [located about halfway between the tree and pot wall] and remove it daily to check the moisture level of the pot. [There is a distinct color change in the wood of the chopstick at the moisture level.]

ynot

[DanielSan]

Thanks, I think I will repot it, although the timing isnt ideal, it looks like it has become rootbound, I'll make sure to give it plenty of water just to make sure as well, thanks.

[ynot]

Thanks, I think I will repot it, although the timing isnt ideal, it looks like it has become rootbound, I'll make sure to give it plenty of water just to make sure as well, thanks.

Your welcome and good luck with the repot, Make sure to get some proper soil ingredients or all the stress induced during the re-potting is for no gain.
[Right you are about the season although ulmus are pretty tough customers.]

Do not over-compensate on the watering [A very very common error]

Just 'as it requires' is the way to go, Keeping it overly wet for an extended period of time in no way compensates for it being dry previously you know what I mean .

You may already be aware of that but it is usually worth mentioning.

ynot

[DanielSan]

Noticed this morning that a lot of the leaves are getting paler and have areas remained dark green, some even brown / black spots on them, I had a look at some of the sites and this is normal for trees that are going into autumn, so does that mean I'm depriving the poor wee thing of light? or could this be something else? I really got this tree because I wanted it indoors but it seems like thats gonna be a bit harder.

You think this has anything to do with the way the roots have become?
About the cat litter, would this be suitable for my tree? my local DIY store sells "bonsai soil" but I don't know if its any good!

Thanks

[ynot]

Noticed this morning that a lot of the leaves are getting paler and have areas remained dark green, some even brown / black spots on them

Pictures please, See here for photo tips: https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3557

I had a look at some of the sites and this is normal for trees that are going into autumn, so does that mean I'm depriving the poor wee thing of light? or could this be something else?

It is something else, Ulmus are not really 'Strictly deciduous' and are often used for indoor culture where they do not go through dormancy [Which is triggered by several things and shorter daylight hours is one, Lowering temps is among the others - This is obviously not happening here.] When indoors these factors do not come into play and while their growth can and will slow down temporarily [Dependant on conditions of course], It does not constitute a dormancy per say.

I really got this tree because I wanted it indoors but it seems like thats gonna be a bit harder.

Yes, It is a bit harder. This is true for any bonsai one wishes to keep indoors as it is not easy to approximate a trees natural environment indoors.

You think this has anything to do with the way the roots have become?

How have they 'become'?...Do you mean because it is rootbound? That will eventually lead to a decline in health and it certainly could be a factor here.

About the cat litter, would this be suitable for my tree?

I am too unfamiliar with that product to suggest it. [I completely trust Harry Harrington {Previous links} who finds it suitable and that is worth considering.] I hesitate to suggest you use it as the sole soil component as your tree would likely benefit from having some organics also.

my local DIY store sells "bonsai soil" but I don't know if its any good!

Me Either! Perhaps you could review the soil sticky [And the pictures and links within it] and compare the info there to to the product that is at DIY and see if it seems of comparable composition, Perhaps a mixture of the litter and DIY product would be effective [Provided of course that the DIY stuff is of a suitable particle size.]

ynot

[Gnome]

DanielSan,

About the cat litter, would this be suitable for my tree?

I agree with Ynot when he suggests that it not be used as a stand alone product. But I would be remiss if I did not bring a possible problem to your attention. While I don't doubt that Harry Harrington has used this product with good results a member here had a bad experience with this product. Please review [url=https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4356]this thread[/url] before you make a decision.

You think this has anything to do with the way the roots have become?

Was the foliage in good condition when you purchased the tree? If so then it leads me to believe that any problems you are experiencing are of your own making.

some even brown / black spots on them

This could be a real problem. There is a fungal disease known as black spot that effects Chinese Elms and if left untreated will eventually lead to its demise.

Norm

[DanielSan]

I'll take more pictures when I find my camera charger!

Its not black spot at least it doesnt look fungal to me, and I look at fungus on a regular basis

The garden centre I bought it from had them in a large rather chilly! greenhouse and when I got it the soil was practically sand it was so dry although I have a feeling that I am to blame for its demise because its got a lot MORE yellow leaves now :/

How come I can grow the most complicated stem cells that require 8 different hormones in different concentrations yet when it comes to a relatively simple plant it goes pear shaped! Need more practice

Cheers for the help.

[ynot]

I'll take more pictures when I find my camera charger!

..Excellent [And I understand that 'Where did I put that?...' feeling.]

Its not black spot at least it doesnt look fungal to me, and I look at fungus on a regular basis

Cool.

The garden centre I bought it from had them in a large rather chilly! greenhouse and when I got it the soil was practically sand it was so dry although I have a feeling that I am to blame for its demise because its got a lot MORE yellow leaves now :/

How chilly? Harry Harrington refers to ulmus bonsai being hardy to -23C [That's not a typo it -10F]
I am not confident the temps were an issue... The watering [Or lack of - potentially] seems a more likely culprit.

How come I can grow the most complicated stem cells that require 8 different hormones in different concentrations yet when it comes to a relatively simple plant it goes pear shaped! Need more practice

Yep, It's all about the practice

ynot

[DanielSan]

Its been outside now for the last few days, enjoying the sunshine no doubt, I'm being carefull watering it, I think its picking up, hard to say...