Soil/Plant Question

[mwmourer]

Well in hindsight I didn't really ask the right question;

will this combo in what ever ratio I do, cover the basic needs of my plant

a peat moss/bark - organic
Perlite/ceramic - non organic.



Two other questions:

How bad is it to just use straight up pruning shears? I was looking at the different bonsai tools and they add up in price far to quick...

Would it be ill advised to take my ficus and do away with two of the four root masses to give it a arched shape for roots instead of legs everywhere?

[ynot]

60% perlite
20-30% fired clay
10-20% bark

I would use a higher % of organics than is listed here for your ficus. Personally, I am not a huge fan of perlite [Too small and VERY floaty]

So there is some portion of inorganic components in this mix, correct? If so about how much? It is difficult to tell from the picture which particles are bark and which are clay (fired?).

Please address this as I am curious about it also. Sorry but it is difficult to tell if there are clay bits included in the bark photos we can see. I was glad to hear the clay is fired

will this combo in what ever ratio I do, cover the basic needs of my plant

a peat moss/bark - organic
Perlite/ceramic - non organic.

The ingredients are fine yes, The ratio of O to IO will determine how much water retention it has. The more O the more retention.

By the way the reason I said to ditch the charcoal earlier [Even though people due use horticultural charcoal] is that I feel the simpler the soil composition-- The better.
Charcoal is [not bad, but] by no means a requirement.

How bad is it to just use straight up pruning shears? I was looking at the different bonsai tools and they add up in price far to quick...

All fine, Use scissors if you like, They will get sticky though.

Would it be ill advised to take my ficus and do away with two of the four root masses to give it a arched shape for roots instead of legs everywhere?

IMO from a styling perspective I think that is a mistake and would make it look far LESS tree-like. From a practical perspective you have no idea what percentage of the tree is utilizing the pathways involved there. It IS your tree though.

ynot

[ynot]

So charcoal to the garbage, use only a small portion of the bark, mainly the smaller pieces, and then go with clay, filtering/breaking it down to 1/16? in to 1/4 inch pieces.

at that rate would have I something near bonsai soil,

The bark breaking plan sounds good.

or is there something the bark/clay is lacking that needs to be picked up in another material?

No, What do you mean? Something such as nutrients?

[If I understand your question correctly] This is a misunderstanding about bonsai soil. Nutrients are provided by you via a fert regimen.

Many people use a combo of [Essentially] bark and high fired clay particles [properly sized] as bonsai soil, It is the basis of a large variety of mixes.

{This is from the soil sticky}
Take a look at the soil used by some of the members here, These are not top dressings, What you see are the actual contents of the pot for it's entire depth:
https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v517/rjj/bonsai%20stuff/atcfb.jpg
https://img120.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ficusbpandoraforestplan2iv.jpg
https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v517/rjj/trident%20maple/a6.jpg
https://img183.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1025xf0.jpg
https://img176.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc01401zz6.jpg
https://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y200/cobra198/IMG_7178.jpg
https://img87.imageshack.us/img87/3356/aug2006hy2.jpg

ynot

[mwmourer]

In the picture the tan and very light red is the fired clay, and the deeper red is the bark. there is a fair amount of clay but I am unsure of the volume ratio.

While doing more researched I fell upon this and if kinda left me lost.
Article suggested three types of material in your soil;

Inorganic - lava rock, perlite, baked clays, granite
Organic - bark
water holding element - peat moss, vermiculite

I guess my confusion comes in the fact I thought things like perlite & baked clays held water, or is it simply that what he refers to as water holding elements hold more water than the organics?

Right now I was looking at picking up some perlite, and mixing it with my bark and fired clay and by this article I would seem to be missing something.

[Gnome]

mwmourer,

I guess my confusion comes in the fact I thought things like perlite & baked clays held water, or is it simply that what he refers to as water holding elements hold more water than the organics?

Firstly peat moss is organic. If you decide to use any do not use the finely textured product but instead use the coarse fibered type. I avoid Vermiculite, feeling that it is too small and retains too much water.

And yes, the inorganics you mention do hold some water but not as much as peat moss. This all gets back to the idea that everyone has a mix they use for certain things and no one mix is correct. You need to come to a decision, observe the results and adjust accordingly next time around.

I think you will find that this seems much more confusing than it really is. The texture and 'open-ness' of your soil is just as important, if not more so, than the actual components.

Norm

[mwmourer]

with perlite, fired clay, bark, would there be any ill effects from the plant not being watered for 48 hours? Not something that occurs often, but I ask cause I am looking to try to make a soil I can water every day with good drain off so I do not have to rack my mind to much in the begining, to water or not to water...


I have also been looking at fertilizer for it, and have come to the conclusion I will most likely use a chemical with its water, and on repot add a little slow release fertilizer to the soil. but I am wondering if with a high inorganic soil with good air flow will cause the slow release to just run out the bottom?

[ynot]

Gnomes last post was right on IMO.

with perlite, fired clay, bark, would there be any ill effects from the plant not being watered for 48 hours?

I suspect not, BUT... understand that this is an unanswerable question.
Essentially your asking: 'Will dry out?' That is the only criteria for determining if it will suffer...And we cannot possibly know this.

Not something that occurs often, but I ask cause I am looking to try to make a soil I can water every day with good drain off so I do not have to rack my mind to much in the begining, to water or not to water...

Your unnecessarily over-thinking this, There is no need for the mental stress of "Do I? or Don't I?". You simply check it every day and water as needed, It is no more complicated than that.

I have also been looking at fertilizer for it, and have come to the conclusion I will most likely use a chemical with its water, and on repot add a little slow release fertilizer to the soil.

Ok. Personally, I am not a fan of slow release ferts but some use it with great success.

but I am wondering if with a high inorganic soil with good air flow will cause the slow release to just run out the bottom?

With properly sized soil I doubt this would be a problem but I don't use it so I have no experience to base that on.

ynot

[mwmourer]

So is Sphagnum moss as good as peat moss?

I have seen peat moss and sphagnum peat moss, but they are both in fine cut, I was able to find a course cut but it is just sphagnum moss

Any comments?

[ynot]

So is Sphagnum moss as good as peat moss?

I have seen peat moss and sphagnum peat moss, but they are both in fine cut, I was able to find a course cut but it is just sphagnum moss

Any comments?

They are literally the exact same thing. Hit google/wiki for details.

Sphagnum is the genus of the moss that grows in peat bogs.

[Aside from the cut-It is still all the same product inside ~ Sometimes the fine is mixed with other stuff but since we won't be using that kind there's no need to go into it..]

The only difference in what your seeing is what they spell differently on the bag for marketing purposes. [This is a commonly confused point on bonsai boards when there is not enough emphasis on the size of the component and only on it's name...Sometimes due to this people often do end up with the atrocious dusty stuff [Which has it's place in horticulture - Just not in bonsai IMO.] instead of rough cut.]

For your purposes you want the rough cut stuff [Usually marketed as 'Sphagnum peat moss' - See the orchid example below.

People usually suggest 'sphagnum' moss because If for no other reason than it is more easily available [Read: Marketed] in the larger course form.
[I cannot recall seeing 'peat moss' for sale in a rougher cut at all at a 'regular' nursery.]

Please DO NOT use the fine cut stuff [The type that looks like dust] It compacts easily [which limits aeration within your soil], Is extremely difficult to wet once dry and stays [soaking] wet for an extended period of time.

All of these are negative attributes in your soil.

I would not use the 'fine dusty variety' in a bonsai pot [or training] under any circumstances...

One common source that is easy to find is the sphagnum moss [An extremely course cut that you can simply chop up with scissors] that is commonly used for orchids. It is usually in a flattish bag or also a cube about the half the size of a loaf of bread.

I hope this helps.

ynot

[mwmourer]

Thanks, its all helpful

Here is what I have for materials in the end, other then comments on size, curious about application of the moss, do you try to mix it into the clay, bark, perlite or layer it in there?

[img]https://img76.imageshack.us/img76/4082/dirt001ix3.jpg[/img]
[img]https://img391.imageshack.us/img391/1779/dirt002ul3.jpg[/img]
[img]https://img76.imageshack.us/img76/4784/dirt003qf1.jpg[/img]
[img]https://img120.imageshack.us/img120/3778/dirt004ce5.jpg[/img]

Thanks for any insight...

[ynot]

Thanks, its all helpful

Here is what I have for materials in the end, other then comments on size, curious about application of the moss, do you try to mix it into the clay, bark, perlite or layer it in there?

Thanks for any insight...

um... The word 'focus' is the first thing that comes to mind...lol. Please read this:
https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3557

[I had a fairly large post about the size of the components but upon rereading I see you specifically addressed that you didn't want those {I think}] So instead:

Just chop it up [sized roughly equivalent to the clay] and mix it in.

Layers would be both impractical [if possible] to do and not be too great for a tree from a horticultural aspect either as then you would end up with [In whatever order] a wet layer, a not so wet layer, a barely wet layer... Etc...

ynot

[mwmourer]

For fun going to post a couple pictures of my tree and its short life. It under went heavy trimming in both top and roots, picture of the roots is after the trimming it went from the orange plastic pot to the larger ceramic.

[img]https://img484.imageshack.us/img484/3729/mfudoriginalkf1.jpg[/img]
[img]https://img484.imageshack.us/img484/88/trimri6.jpg[/img]
[img]https://img391.imageshack.us/img391/2558/mfudtransplant2bu0.jpg[/img]
[img]https://img391.imageshack.us/img391/8339/mfudtransplant1qa2.jpg[/img]


And a picture of my tree and the $3.50 walmart tree (where mine probably came from) but the small plant was more so bought for the ceramic pot it was in.


[img]https://img245.imageshack.us/img245/2974/sammfud1fu9.jpg[/img]

Thanks for the help and welcome any comments on them...

[Gnome]

mwmourer,

Well now that you have this out of the way you can look forward to your next victim. I think you'll find the plants will be much happier in the new soil mix. Make sure that any water that may accumulate in the drip trays can never wick back up into the pots. I don't recall if you intend to keep them outside of not, but I suggest you do so. Do you have some sort of plan for either one of these or are you going to just play it by ear for now?

Norm

[mwmourer]

they go outside each day, but living in an apartment, they have no real place to stay outside, so in the morning they get sat on the east roof, open screen place outside...afternoon repeat to the other side of the apartment..

Plans for them...well the little one might have more promise than mine...I like that fact that it has a branch directly out the top and the roots have formed a solid mass of of 3 roots abreast....I think this one just needs to grow a little, going to pop off the large leaves in support of smaller leaves, if possible...

I tried chopping the trunk on the bigger one to the point that I can at least get growth out of it...I may have to cut lower for this if it doesn't take to later

other than that, going to find some information on wiring and find some...specially the bigger the branches need to be sorted.

[Gnome]

mwmourer,

they have no real place to stay outside, so in the morning they get sat on the east roof, open screen place outside...afternoon repeat to the other side of the apartment..

Unless you fear for their safety I think I would be inclined to pick a spot and leave them alone. This sounds like a lot of trouble and I wonder if you won't get sick of it soon.

[url]https://www.bonsaihunk.us/ficusforum/FicusTechniques/FigTechnique6.html[/url]

Good luck and give us an update later.

Norm

[mwmourer]

I was wondering if anyone has any suggestions on how to get a branch out the top,

after some reading I see that many people do a trunk chop at an angle, which then seems to sprout a branch that they direct upward giving the trunk character...
but I think to do a cut like that, I would lose all but 1 maybe 2 branches...so I was wondering if there was any other way...ikinda like a transplant of a live branch to center top?

[Gnome]

mwmourer,

I was wondering if anyone has any suggestions on how to get a branch out the top,

Usually a branch is wired up to form a new leader. The trunk can be cut first or a somewhat safer approach would be to leave it long and carve it out later after the new leader thickens. This is S.O.P.

https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4218

Norm

[ynot]

Along with the fine example from rjj that he posted, The link Gnome posted in the post just previous to your last post is also full of info relating to your species.

It is well worth diving into.

ynot

[mwmourer]

Yes, that previous site on ficus has a ton of information on it and thanks for it, I just wasn't finding my particular question, though thanks Gnome for answering it.

I have a couple trees coming up from home here shortly, elm, maple, crab apple and I am looking to improve on my soil sieves...the home made tubs with drilled holes aren't great, though they did get the first round finished...

After looking at some for awhile, I noticed there is a hand full of ways to reference the size of mesh...

Size # --> ?
# m/m --> millimeter?
# mm --> size of hole in millimeter
# per inch --> inch/# is size of hole


Also I have noticed there is a lot of online bonsai stores, finding some bad reviews for some, good reviews for a few, and none for others, I was wondering what stores you guys deal with or have had good luck with.

[ynot]

I have a couple trees coming up from home here shortly, elm, maple, crab apple and I am looking to improve on my soil sieves...the home made tubs with drilled holes aren't great, though they did get the first round finished...

After looking at some for awhile, I noticed there is a hand full of ways to reference the size of mesh...

Size # --> ?
# m/m --> millimeter?
# mm --> size of hole in millimeter
# per inch --> inch/# is size of hole

You may find it cheaper to simply buy sieves, They are not expensive by any means...See below.

Also I have noticed there is a lot of online bonsai stores, finding some bad reviews for some, good reviews for a few, and none for others, I was wondering what stores you guys deal with or have had good luck with.

Please read [url=https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4694&highlight=]this[/url].

Thanks go to the search feature at the top of the page .

ynot

[Gnome]

mwmourer,

You may find it cheaper to simply buy sieves, They are not expensive by any means...

This may be true for most people but if like myself you are a "tool person" and constant pack-rat then the reverse may be true. Besides it pains me to buy something that I can make. Not everyone is afflicted with this malady though. I Always have scrap lumber and fasteners around so a few square feet of hardware cloth is all that I purchased for mine. One other advantage to making them is that you can size them as you see fit.

Norm

[ynot]

Gnomes point is entirely valid, I was approaching it from the aspect of [The easiest route to] improving the level of effectiveness that you have wrt sieving though this is entirely achievable via the elbow grease route as well.

Version 2.0 will most likely be a vast improvement .

ynot

[mwmourer]

I will try to get a picture of in up after a bit, but I am noticed black lines on a couple leaves...to me they almost look like burns, I guess I would expect insects to start towards the outside of the leaf...

I am wondering if maybe from being a indoor plant if I am not giving it to much direct light when I put it out side.

[mwmourer]

[img]https://img47.imageshack.us/img47/7794/plants003pe5.jpg[/img]
[img]https://img47.imageshack.us/img47/4373/plants004zv5.jpg[/img]

Cannot see them great, but not bad.

[ynot]

I will try to get a picture of in up after a bit, but I am noticed black lines on a couple leaves...to me they almost look like burns, I guess I would expect insects to start towards the outside of the leaf...

I am wondering if maybe from being a indoor plant if I am not giving it to much direct light when I put it out side.

Did you give it a transitional period over which you gradually increased the amount of light it was exposed to? { Or are they roasting in the mid-day sun? }
This concept is key to any change in a trees environment.

Ficus are tropical trees that are native to places such as Australia India, and Thailand so they can certainly handle some sun.

While your attention to detail and concern is admirable, I think it is possible that you are micro-managing your tree a bit.

Personally, Seeing this on a 'couple of leaves' would not be a matter of concern for me. Having said that do keep an eye on it for a decline in health [As always..]

ynot

[mwmourer]

usually it goes out around 7 am and in around lunch at times when I am around with work and lunch...that way I figure it doesnt get completely smoked


And far as a couple leaves, its usually on 1 or 2, and I might pop them off (any reason too?) and then a day or two later, its on another couple....

[ynot]

usually it goes out around 7 am and in around lunch at times when I am around with work and lunch...that way I figure it doesnt get completely smoked

That sounds completely tolerable to the tree, Is it possible that you could place it somewhere that it would get morning sun and be shaded [At least partially] through the mid-day heat? That would alleviate all the moving it about.

Again, Did you transition it gradually into the hours of sunlight it now receives? Sunburn could be the issue if you simply plunked it into the bright sunshine with no period of time for it to acclimate itself.

Is it drying out much quicker than previously? Sometimes browning in the center of the leaves can indicate that it is drying out during the heat of the day.
[I understand that you bring it in - But that has nothing to do with if it is getting thirsty or not.]

And far as a couple leaves, its usually on 1 or 2, and I might pop them off (any reason too?) and then a day or two later, its on another couple....

I suspect [at this point] the 'cure' is worse than the problem.
IMO there is no need to remove what appears to be a functioning leaf due to a tiny bit of discolor, Eventually you will run out of leaves....

ynot

[mwmourer]

At the moment there is really no where good to put it, due to living in an apartment. I do know if I transitioned to its liking, but it was put out for a couple days for 1-3 hours in the late after noon into evening with the setting sun on the other side of the house...

I Do not think it is drying out, looks to be getting a fair amount of new growth..and I have been checking the soil 2-3 times a day for moisture under the surface, if I think its getting kinda dry, in goes the water....

I have another question also and I did try the search at the top and looked around on the internet some and just wasn't really finding the answer or a picture to answer the question.

In reference to the pot to us for your tree and drainage, after looking at them at the store, most if not all the pots available to me have the drain on a high point in the base of the pot, leaving a around the drain that cannot drain... Are bonsai specific pots different and is it really a problem?