Zelkova or Chinese ELM???

[gnome80]

Aloha guys,

A quick Q and A

I have 2 (10 cm tall) Fukien Tea bonsai and 1 older tree (ABout 25 cm from the pot up).

----------------------

#1 How can I see how old the trees are?
#2 On the taller tree there was a label with the name Zelkova when I bought it. (it was my frist tree)
Only I;m kind of doubting that it is a Zelkova as it more looks like a Chinese Elm. I do know that these are 2 very similar trees, but still there is a difference. (I have no pictures atm)

How can I see what my wonderful tree is?

Thnx in advance David the Gnome.

[ynot]

Aloha guys,

A quick Q and A

I have 2 (10 cm tall) Fukien Tea bonsai and 1 older tree (ABout 25 cm from the pot up).

----------------------

#1 How can I see how old the trees are?
#2 On the taller tree there was a label with the name Zelkova when I bought it. (it was my frist tree)
Only I;m kind of doubting that it is a Zelkova as it more looks like a Chinese Elm. I do know that these are 2 very similar trees, but still there is a difference. (I have no pictures atm)

How can I see what my wonderful tree is?

Thnx in advance David the Gnome.

David,
Welcome to the forum. [And aloha to you in ..er...Amsterdam]

I admit I found your post a bit confusing at first ...
[Partially due to your screen name...A sheer coincidence that you will understand at a later point...lol.] Moving on..

1. Unless you grew it from seed... The only reliable way to determine the age of your tree is to count the growth rings.
Unfortunately... This requires chopping the tree down, Which seems counterproductive to say the least you know.. . As far as their age goes... Is it important to know that?
Age is often an illusion in bonsai anyway, We spend a lot of time and effort manipulating our trees to make them appear ancient and untouched...lol

2. As you give no reason, I must ask: Why do you suspect it to be other than what it is labeled?

I am not saying that it doesn't happen [for various reasons] and in fact [If I recall correctly] sometimes Chinese Elms have been labeled as Zelkova to get around import restrictions in various countries. I am just curious.

Some more information wrt the tree couldn't hurt any,

IE: How long you have had it, Location you keep it in? Did it keep it's leaves all winter?... Just for starters.

The more information we have to work with... The more helpful we can be you know.

These are [url=https://www.bonsai4me.com/SpeciesGuide/Zelkova.html]Zelkova[/url] leaves:

[img]https://www.bonsai4me.com/Images/SGimages/zelkova%20carpinifolia.jpg[/img]

This is a [url=https://www.bonsai4me.com/SpeciesGuide/Ulmus.html]Chinese Elm[/url] leaf:

[img]https://www.bonsai4me.com/Images/SGimages/ulmus%20minor%20leaf.jpg[/img]

Do check out the articles at https://www.bonsai4me.com/Basics.html & also https://www.evergreengardenworks.com/articles.htm You will find a wealth of information there.

Here are some bonsai photo tips: https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3557
And a bit of bonsai inspiration for you: https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3343

I hope this was helpful

ynot

[gnome80]

Wel the counting of the rings is a nice one but I doubt my tree would let me cut it then stick it back together .


But ok. I;ve had the tree for 1month now and it started dropping leaves just as I put it inside (behind a large window with plenty of light and regular watering)

It kind of looks like this picture I found
[img]https://www.portalbonsai.com/images/20050119133921Bonsai3.JPG[/img]

I've checked most of the sites online to see what the tree is, but still cant find a clear way to define if its a chinese elm of Zelkova.

I'll take some quick pics when I;m home to compare the leaves (If any....)

atm its doing great, but I'd rather not treat it as a Zelkova and it turns out to be a chinese elm (not that it would be bad, but still. I wanna be a nice farmer)

[Gnome]

David,

Now you see what Ynot meant when he wrote this:

I admit I found your post a bit confusing at first ...
[Partially due to your screen name...A sheer coincidence that you will understand at a later point

Here are some tips that may help you differentiate between Zelkova and Chinese Elms. On the Elms the leaves are smaller and the internodes are usually shorter. On mine the shoots are straighter than my Zelkovas. Here is a comparison.
[url=https://img255.imageshack.us/my.php?image=zelelmzz6.jpg][img]https://img255.imageshack.us/img255/2258/zelelmzz6.th.jpg[/img][/url]
That is a U.S. 25c piece, just under one inch.

atm its doing great, but I'd rather not treat it as a Zelkova and it turns out to be a chinese elm (not that it would be bad, but still. I wanna be a nice farmer)

It's good that you want to do the right thing but in this case, at least for now, there is little difference in their culture so don't worry about the ID too much.

But ok. I;ve had the tree for 1month now and it started dropping leaves just as I put it inside (behind a large window with plenty of light and regular watering)

You are making one of the most common errors, at least as I interpret your remark, among beginners. Never water on a schedule "regular watering", perhaps you meant something different but if you water every day or even every other day you may, depending on your soil and other factors, be keeping it too wet. Go out in your garden and put your hand in the earth. Is it wet? Unless it has rained recently more than likely the soil is merely damp and cool, not soggy.

Please read the sticky threads at the top of this forum. If you follow the links you will find a lot of information about watering and other basics. In the meantime don't water it again until you are sure it needs it. The top of the soil should appear dry and the soil itself (underneath) should be damp, just as the soil in your garden.

Your tree will also do much better outside. For now find a spot that gets some morning sun and some shade in the afternoon. Later as you become accustomed to the tree you will probably increase this but since it has been indoors, for who knows how long, ease into it.

Norm

[gnome80]

Now you see what Ynot meant when he wrote this: Quote:
I admit I found your post a bit confusing at first ...
[Partially due to your screen name...A sheer coincidence that you will understand at a later point

Hehehehe this I saw before. Thus the 80 behind it as my birth year.



Well I guess right now to know which it was, was more of a name thing and a beginners unease. I've been reading almost everything I can find on Zelkova's, chinese elms and fukien trees. I will be getting a nice 5 year old chinese elm soon.

With regular watering I meant more as "when needed" so not really to much nor to little.

As for the sun etc/ garden, I'm living in an appartment on the 4th floor (top floor)(with morning sun and evening shade). I have a balkony where I do put the plants regularly, but it does get kind of windy outside and my dog aint the nicest for plants

I can make a special thing to put it up higher, but rather keep it inside (kinda selfish, but to enjoy it myself too).

I'll keep reading and you guys will see me around the forum.

thnx for all the advice.

[Geek]

Here are some tips that may help you differentiate between Zelkova and Chinese Elms. On the Elms the leaves are smaller and the internodes are usually shorter. On mine the shoots are straighter than my Zelkovas. Here is a comparison.
[url=https://img255.imageshack.us/my.php?image=zelelmzz6.jpg][img]https://img255.imageshack.us/img255/2258/zelelmzz6.th.jpg[/img][/url]
That is a U.S. 25c piece, just under one inch.

So the leaves on the right in the pic are Chinese Elm and the left is Zelkova? If so is this indicative of normal leaf scale between the two or are the larger leaves from a full size or larger tree? Reason I am asking is I am trying to decide between the two trees myself and I am very interested in the scale of the leaves in relation to the tree.

[Gnome]

Geek,

So the leaves on the right in the pic are Chinese Elm and the left is Zelkova?

Correct.

If so is this indicative of normal leaf scale between the two or are the larger leaves from a full size or larger tree?

These are both from potted trees. Both of these trees can be seen in the gallery, there are not that many threads there and I have only started a few so you should have no trouble locating them.

The Chinese Elm does have a much smaller leaf furthering the illusion of a full sized tree. The Zelkova leaves may reduce further but I am not to the point of refining the tree yet as I am still building the structure of the broom style.

Norm

[Geek]

By the way are these trees true elms and if so can the get Dutch Elm disease or do they have resistance?

[constantstaticx3]

I actualy think both of them are resistant to the disease, I know the chinese elm is but I'm not 100% sure on the zlekova.

Tom

[Gnome]

Geek,

Harry Harrington points out [url=https://www.bonsai4me.com/SpeciesGuide/Zelkova.html]here[/url] that Dutch Elm disease is not usually a problem with bonsai. If it should present itself the disease is managed much more readily than in a full sized tree.

Norm