New to bonsai, have a question or two (or five)

[kellybelly]

I've been interested in getting into (and have been researching) the care and cultivation of bonsai for a few months now, but never made any serious plans to get started. that is, until this afternoon when I purchased a bonsai from the local home/garden center on an impulse. I got a typical "mallsai," and though it came with a small tag with care instructions there was no indication of what type of tree it was.

It's obviously a pine (it has that Christmas tree smell, which is actually what attracted me to it), and I'd wager a guess that it's a mugo pine. Here is a photo of the tree:

[img]https://farm1.static.flickr.com/254/461007528_48e8386dfd_o.jpg[/img]

and here's a close-up shot:

[img]https://farm1.static.flickr.com/233/461013331_b98d5be4fb_o.jpg[/img]

So my first question is:

1. Is my attempt at identifying the tree correct?

I have been doing a lot of research and reading the posts in this forum all afternoon. I have a basic understanding of what I should and need to do to take care of this tree, and a timeline as to when I should do things. Of course the very first thing I did was remove the glued rocks so I can actually get to the dirt.... and my only real concern is the soil. It's in potting soil, which I know is a big no-no. According to my research (and assuming my identification is correct), unlike most bonsai the best time to repot a mugo is in the summer. Which leads to my second question:

2. Which of the two options should I follow?
a. Repot immediately (even though it's not really time) -- it can't wait.
b. Wait until summer (August) to repot -- it'll be okay until then.

There's actually a third option -- in about a month there is a bonsai show/sale at the Chicago Botanic Gardens. I'm planning on attending to purchase any necessary supplies and whatnot -- can this tree wait a month to be repotted? I'd like to stress the tree out as little as possible, so I'd like to put off repotting it for as long as possible.

Right now the tree is inside, but tomorrow I'm thinking of putting it out on the patio. Temperatures look to be in the 50s during the day with the possibility of below-freezing at night. So this brings me to my third question:

3. Will it shock the tree too much to go from indoors immediately outside? Should there be some sort of adjustment period?

A few more questions (sorry!) -- this season I plan on trimming up the new growth, repotting it, and I hope to prune it a bit. Since there is so much being done, I know I should wait for any major shaping in order to avoid over-stressing the tree. So...

4. Will it handle all that (pruning/repot) well, or should I wait until next season to do anything but repot?
5. I have no idea of the age -- when do you think I should start shaping and wiring?

Thanks for reading, and for any advice you have to offer!

[ynot]

Kellybelly,

Hello and welcome to THG from an hour to the west

I want to thank you for the pictures, And for the fact you have done a bit of research/reading. [Glad to hear you understand about potting soil, Glued rocks...etc.]

Judging by the saucer, I take it that the pot has a drainage hole.

2. Which of the two options should I follow?
a. Repot immediately (even though it's not really time) -- it can't wait.
b. Wait until summer (August) to repot -- it'll be okay until then.

There's actually a third option -- in about a month there is a bonsai show/sale at the Chicago Botanic Gardens. I'm planning on attending to purchase any necessary supplies and whatnot -- can this tree wait a month to be repotted? I'd like to stress the tree out as little as possible, so I'd like to put off repotting it for as long as possible.

IMO, I would wait & there are several reasons why:
Accurate ID needed.
Do you have an appropriate medium to put it into?
The amount of time between now and the latest repotting timeframe you mentioned is akin to us sitting at a stoplight in the scale of a 'pines' development. No rush required.

Right now the tree is inside, but tomorrow I'm thinking of putting it out on the patio. Temperatures look to be in the 50s during the day with the possibility of below-freezing at night. So this brings me to my third question:

3. Will it shock the tree too much to go from indoors immediately outside? Should there be some sort of adjustment period?

Trees should always be acclimated when changing environments as their natural environment changes at a very gradual pace. Some are more sensitive than others wrt this and it is always best to err on the side of caution. More importantly here...Species ID- Again.. .

A few more questions (sorry!) -- this season I plan on trimming up the new growth, repotting it, and I hope to prune it a bit. Since there is so much being done, I know I should wait for any major shaping in order to avoid over-stressing the tree. So...

4. Will it handle all that (pruning/repot) well, or should I wait until next season to do anything but repot?

Ok, This is apparently near the size and girth development that you wish it to be? I ask because if you do all this pruning it is not going to increase in any of these aspects [particularly girth] to any measurable degree. [Again, Both of these questions depend on what it is. Sorry to harp on this but it is a relevant issue. ]

5. I have no idea of the age -- when do you think I should start shaping and wiring?

Age doesn't matter, It is the appearance of age that matters in bonsai. [Usually] The entire thing is about illusion.

Do you have a plan sketched out wrt what your goals are for this one? I ask because it is difficult to know how to answer #5 without knowing your intentions.

Here are a few links to peruse. [Which may not be relevant. As an accurate ID is still required.]

https://www.bonsai4me.com/SpeciesGuide/Pinus.html
A bit on Mugos w/ pruning info; https://www.bonsai4me.com/AdvTech/ATMugo%20Pines%20Indepth.htm
Brent Walston has several excellent articles about specifically Black Pines but you will find the concepts and frames of times referred to informative.
see those here: https://www.evergreengardenworks.com/articles.htm

[Mind you I don't grow pines, When you see the pruning process you will understand why ]

Did this spend all winter inside at the shop? When purchased, Was it in the greenhouse or outside? [If it is a pine, Not a good call there by the shop.]

To save some money and have some fun, Consider [url=https://www.evergreengardenworks.com/nurserys.ht]another way of shopping for potential bonsai.[/url]

EDIT: Gnome makes an excellent point wrt ID. [Pine, Spruce, Yew...etc..] I would go back to the retailer and ask for the LNS [Live nursery specialist] have them ID it for you.

Hope this helped [url=https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3343]Need inspiration? Click here[/url] [img]https://img241.imageshack.us/img241/1939/u4jchinaec9.gif[/img]

ynot

[Gnome]

Kellybelly,

Hello and welcome. I too am pleased that you have taken some time to do some research. Unfortunately you fell a little short of the mark in purchasing an unnamed plant. This always makes things more difficult. I trust you won't make the same mistake again.

I am not at all certain of you identification, to me it doesn't shout Pinus. The structure looks more like a Spruce to me but that is very preliminary. Are the needles arranged in bundles or do they occur singly? Most Pines have their needles in groups of two, three or five.

I'm off to bed now but I'll check back in tomorrow. In the meantime it may be best to keep it inside for now. It's been inside anyway and it is possible that we are all wrong and it is something tender. I doubt it but until you have a better ID best to play it safe.

Norm

[constantstaticx3]

Ok, here is a thread from a few days ago that had a similar looking tree.
https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4606
It was ID'd as a Blue Moss Cypress. I'm not familiar with them so type that into google and see what you find.

Tom

[ynot]

Ok, here is a thread from a few days ago that had a similar looking tree.
https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4606
It was ID'd as a Blue Moss Cypress. I'm not familiar with them so type that into google and see what you find.

Tom

Good eye Tom, Another possibility.
[I'm not sure that one was actually 'blue moss' [Didn't look that blue ] but IMO Chamaecyparis are all thirsty and don't backbud. .]

ynot

[kellybelly]

Thanks for all the warm welcomes and information! I've learned more about trees in the past day that I ever thought I'd need to know!

Judging by the saucer, I take it that the pot has a drainage hole.

Correct.

I am not at all certain of you identification, to me it doesn't shout Pinus. The structure looks more like a Spruce to me but that is very preliminary.

It's definitely not a chamaecyparis or a yew; all the photos I've since seen (and descriptions I've read) of those two are nothing like my tree. The needles are round/needlelike, narrow at the base, grow singly and spiral around the branch. Definitely not my first assumption of a pine, so I'm guessing picea. What type, I don't know, but at least I have a better understanding of what type of tree it is.

Which kind of brings me back to question #2 above. I have the understanding that I should repot early to mid-spring before new growth expands. Should I run out today and get a new pot and some soil and repot it immediately? Is it too late? Is there another acceptiable time to repot a spruce?

I too am pleased that you have taken some time to do some research. Unfortunately you fell a little short of the mark in purchasing an unnamed plant. This always makes things more difficult. I trust you won't make the same mistake again.

I am duly chastised. It was a spur of the moment purchase as I said; a decision made while I was picking up a new pot for a houseplant. Again, I'm planning on attending a bonsai show/sale (put on by the [url=https://www.midwestbonsai.org]Midwest Bonsai Society[/url]) next month. Maybe I'll pick up another tree while I'm there. Also, the next club is meeting on May 7th and I might attend that as well.

This is apparently near the size and girth development that you wish it to be? I ask because if you do all this pruning it is not going to increase in any of these aspects [particularly girth] to any measurable degree. [Again, Both of these questions depend on what it is. Sorry to harp on this but it is a relevant issue. ]

I originally was going to start some pruning/trimming this year in order to try to clean up some branches and promote back budding. Maybe my terminology is incorrect -- I was mainly intending to trim up the new growth, with maybe some minimal pruning of old growth and some needle plucking.

If it is indeed a spruce I probably won't have a whole lot of luck shaping it into anything but what it wants to be, correct? Since the "Christmas tree smell" was what attracted me to it, I think the most I'll do is make it into a tiny, living (typical cone shaped) Christmas tree.

Right now it's about 7" at the tallest part (8" at the widest). The branches in the center of the tree are pretty short with the tallest branches near the outside and I would like to encourage more growth in the middle if I'm to achieve a conical shape.

Thanks again!

[Gnome]

Kellybelly,

Which kind of brings me back to question #2 above. I have the understanding that I should repot early to mid-spring before new growth expands. Should I run out today and get a new pot and some soil and repot it immediately? Is it too late? Is there another acceptiable time to repot a spruce?

Since this tree is already in active growth your point of re-potting before new growth begins is moot. Similarly, and your research should help here, unless you have appropriate soil on hand then re-potting will not be of any benefit.

My advice would be to begin to gather your soil components, or ready-made soil (either needs sieved) and further pursue your identification. Perhaps you could take it to the upcoming bonsai show you mentioned if it's still unidentified then.

If it is indeed a spruce I probably won't have a whole lot of luck shaping it into anything but what it wants to be, correct?

I'm glad that you are keeping that identification as preliminary in your mind as it can be difficult to ID a tree from a few pictures. Dwarf Alberta Spruce do indeed have a bad reputation WRT bonsai design but I'm not sure that this applies to all species.

I have some small Alberta Spruce that were leftover from a X-mas promotion and have only potted them once so far, 2 or 3 years. I believe that I have read that Spruce are somewhat finicky WRT re-potting.

Sorry the tone of this is so speculative but its the best I can do now.

Norm

[kellybelly]

Kellybelly,Since this tree is already in active growth your point of re-potting before new growth begins is moot. Similarly, and your research should help here, unless you have appropriate soil on hand then re-potting will not be of any benefit.

I was mostly asking about repotting because of the soil that's the tree is currently planted in.

Will leaving it in potting soil until next spring be worse for the tree than repotting it in better soil within the next month (I can either mix my own or buy some bonsai soil at the show next month)?

Sorry the tone of this is so speculative but its the best I can do now.

Fully understood. I'm going to try to make it to the next club meeting and bring the tree along to be identified.

Thanks!

[ynot]

KB,

I was mostly asking about repotting because of the soil that's the tree is currently planted in.

We understand this.

Will leaving it in potting soil until next spring be worse for the tree than repotting it in better soil within the next month (I can either mix my own or buy some bonsai soil at the show next month)?

As I said before leaving it will not hurt it any, There is a long way to go with this one.
When you get your soil, Only then will you know what it is and the chances are very good it will be too late to repot it [Whatever it is] by then.

IMO, I would wait & there are several reasons why:
Accurate ID needed.
Do you have an appropriate medium to put it into?
The amount of time between now and the latest repotting timeframe you mentioned is akin to us sitting at a stoplight in the scale of a 'pines' development. No rush required.

I would just let it ride....

Good luck & I will see you at the show
ynot