sailfins
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silver maple

Hey guys.There is a silver maple growing out back.It is 15' tall with a 3" diameter trunk.The tree is almost all trunk with very few branches.Very straight tree.Its in the fenceline and needs cut out.What if I chopped the trunk at say 18".Would it leaf out at the chop?Or die?
Would this be a goodtree to experiment on.Or is the root system too large now?I imagine it has a huge tap root.I might chop it just to see.What are your thoughts.
Joe

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Sailfins,

If it is going to be cut out any way what have you got to lose? I have a sugar maple that I have been working on and although it will never be a quality bonsai I still can't bring myself to throw it out.
What if I chopped the trunk at say 18".Would it leaf out at the chop?Or die?
More than likely it will sprout below the chop. Maples have a strong tendency to sprout at the locations of previous nodes.
Would this be a goodtree to experiment on.Or is the root system too large now?I imagine it has a huge tap root.
Can you move it a little in the ground? If not it will be difficult to move. Even so it will be good practice for collecting. If you decide to play around with it just do the chop for now. It will need all of its root system to recover. Later this year you can take a spade and sever the roots on two opposite sides as preparation for a later transplant.

Norm

ynot
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8) :D

How long do you have before it is to be removed?
Would this be a goodtree to experiment on.Or is the root system too large now?
I agree with Gnome: What do you have to lose? :D

Likely a massive root system, I am seeing a lot of root work in the future for you. ;) Build a grow box for this one:D.

If you do end up with a survivor It will need to be chopped again but hopefully you will get a lot of advantageous buds that will allow you chop it further in the future.

Good luck & have fun :!:

ynot

sailfins
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I have all the time I need.I think I will chop it Tommorow.There are a couple that I have my eye on.One of them has two trunks .Either way I will take pictures and post them.
I am in a wheelchair temporarily so it may take some time.....

ynot
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Joe,

Excellent that you have time, Pictures=8).

Is it budding out yet?

Sorry to hear of your current situation, Heal well amigo.

ynot

sailfins
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no buds at all.I see that one of the trees has been cut half way through the trunk last year at about 8" off the ground.My dad must have tried to cut it down last year.
Anyway no new growth yet on either tree.
If the snow melts and its not raining tommorow I will chop away.
These are actually in amongst some hedges so it might get tricky.

constantstaticx3
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This sounds like a fun project. I'm sure there is a great powerful nebari and if you play your cards right, with a bit luck you could have a very impressive bonsai. Have fun and I'll look forward to the pics.

Tom

sailfins
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Before

I gave upon the straight tree it's too big and and I think it's dead from the cut half way thru the trunk my dad did last year.It's too boring

[img]https://img396.imageshack.us/img396/945/img0218sa4.jpg[/img]
The neighbors are looking at me funny and my little brother is rolling his eye's at me but here goes.There is some doubt that this is a maple .My dad thinks it's part of the hedge but it has different color.
[img]https://img291.imageshack.us/img291/4199/img0220ye1.jpg[/img]
I am sure it's a maple it is either a red maple or a silver maple.
Either way I wacked it at the knee.Now how to get some taper........

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Sailfins,
Now how to get some taper........
Cut more off. For the sake of argument disregard the back branch for now, simply because I can't see it very well. If you cut the largest branch (right hand side) off you can see that it greatly increases both movement and taper. A split that high up is not appropriate for a twin trunk style.

It is also possible that you may be able to cut both of those off and go with the lowest branch as the new leader. Later, another chop to repeat the process, this is how taper is created.

This is the way most larger, and many smaller ones as well, bonsai are created, from the top down not from the bottom up. Seedlings, cuttings and young nursery stock can of course be used but they require years of growing out in order to obtain any girth.

Glad to see someone is taking this route.

Norm

EDIT: Oh, I missed that both shots are of the same plant. Are you saying that the larger portion is dead, or does that refer to another tree?

sailfins
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I was refering to the other tree.This one is alive.the two shots are the same tree from opposite angles.I will cut more off.
Where exactly should I cut it?I will go take a better picure.

Ok I am back

So you say I should cut th largest trunk off and let the smaller branch be the new leader?Then I will do that ,but what about the second trunk?It
Starts from the ground.
[img]https://img413.imageshack.us/img413/7522/img0225sa7.jpg[/img]
[img]https://img103.imageshack.us/img103/1447/img0227uy6.jpg[/img]
cool!
I'm starting to get into this.

ynot
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Thanks for posting the pictures:)

Oops,

Too late for my hurried virt, And I see that I missed that the first picture was indeed the same tree.. [:oops: Hence my mistake wrt the branch placement..]

Here it is anyway:

[url=https://imageshack.us][img]https://img267.imageshack.us/img267/5884/img0220ye1qc5.jpg[/img][/url]

I would attempt to dig out the nebari a bit [Later, As obviously it looks frozen] and see what you have.

That other branch could end up as the new leader or chopped back to about half it's current height for a mother/daughter composition....

Deciding on a 'front' [once you can see the potential nebari] will be helpful wrt future design decisions.

Cool project 8)

ynot

LiddleBuddha
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Wow! This looks like a fun project! :P :shock: :D Good luck with everything, sailfins!

:idea: :idea: I wonder if my previous landlord would mind me digging up the nice Japanese Red Maple that was on the property? hehe... :twisted: :wink: :P

sailfins
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Ynot,
Do you think I should cut more off.?From The virtual image it appears That I should cut alot more off.I don't want to lose the taper on the main trunk.Should I shorten the smaller trunk?.And the ground isn't frozen we just had a cold spell this week. the snow is about all gone and it will be in the 50"s tommorow.Should I dig around this guy now .Maybe cut around with a spade?

ynot
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sailfins wrote:Ynot,
Do you think I should cut more off.?From The virtual image it appears That I should cut alot more off.I don't want to lose the taper on the main trunk.
My initial virt is from a picture angle that is not very effective.

What taper do you refer to on the main trunk?
Should I shorten the smaller trunk?
IMO, Yes see virt.

[url=https://imageshack.us][img]https://img115.imageshack.us/img115/7406/img0220ye2rc2.jpg[/img][/url]


.And the ground isn't frozen we just had a cold spell this week. the snow is about all gone and it will be in the 50"s tommorow.Should I dig around this guy now .Maybe cut around with a spade?
Leave it in the ground if you don't have to move it IMO.
I would clear off some of the dirt around the crown to see if you can see which way the nebari are heading under there.
I would wait and let it bud out this year and then possibly trench half of it next year.

ynot

sailfins
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I figured if I left the The main trunk as it is and let the remaining branch become the new apex the scar would heal and taper would develope.
But I see by your picture I should whack it off too.As wellas the second branch.
I think I will mull this over a bit.
I will cut the second trunk down more.
And dig out the nebri.
What does wrt stand for I am clueless.LOL

ynot
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sailfins wrote:I figured if I left the The main trunk as it is and let the remaining branch become the new apex the scar would heal and taper would develope.
But I see by your picture I should whack it off too.As wellas the second branch.
No you shouldn't whack it entirely, I did leave a bit of the [smaller diameter] upper branch [as you can see] this provides a bit of transition [taper] into the area where the new growth will be.

[url=https://www.bonsai4me.com/AdvTech/ATdevelopingtrunksforbonsai.html]You will find this useful.[/url] :D
I think I will mull this over a bit.
I will cut the second trunk down more.
Both good ideas :D
And dig out the nebri.
Just expose it to peek at it, Be careful not to disturb it though.
What does wrt stand for I am clueless.LOL
lol...Sorry. 'WRT' = 'With Regard To'

ynot

sailfins
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Ok I just cut.I also removed some dirt check it out.
[img]https://img265.imageshack.us/img265/3671/img0239ka7.jpg[/img]
[img]https://img265.imageshack.us/img265/3005/img0240hh5.jpg[/img]
This large root is going to be trouble.

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Sailfins,

[img]https://img103.imageshack.us/img103/1447/img0227uy6.jpg[/img]

This is about what I was trying to express earlier. The transition from the thicker trunk to the thinner begins to develop taper. Had you left it like that you would have had a new shoot somewhere from the new leader. This would have been cut back again to create further taper. Keep in mind that my remarks were somewhat hypothetical, I was attempting to deal with the issue of creating taper.

The tree probably would have been too large except for very large bonsai, so your having cut it further is not a problem either, just a different approach. I am concerned that the stub is so small that you may not get a shoot where you are expecting it, trees don't always behave as you might wish. You could have left it a bit longer (several inches) and cut it again later after a new leader had developed.

As it stands now you will just have to wait and see what happens, there is a good chance you will be shortening it again in a few years after the new leader is established.

Norm

sailfins
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HUH?
I cut it almost exactly as your picture indicated .within
a 1/2 an inch.Now your saying I cut it too short?
Well I'm not gonna sweat it.Not even slightly.
Looks good to me.
Besides there several other trees to try this on .I'm learning.
But I think my Dad wants me to dig this out soon.Do you think that will kill it?I will try to let it go until spring.

ynot
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sailfins wrote:Ok I just cut.I also removed some dirt check it out...
This large root is going to be trouble.
To say the least, This is going to be a multi-year project.
But I think my Dad wants me to dig this out soon.Do you think that will kill it?I will try to let it go until spring.
You may not entirely understand the extent of the process we are describing here sailfin. It takes a long time and much preparation to successfully collect a mature specimen.

Read these articles about collecting from [World famous bonsai artist] Walter Pall:

https://www.bonsai4me.com/AdvTech/ATcollectring%20trees%20from%20the%20wild%20W%20Pall.htm
https://www.bonsai4me.com/AdvTech/ATcollectring%20trees%20from%20the%20wild%20W%20Pall%20Part%20two.htm
https://www.bonsai4me.com/AdvTech/ATcollectring%20trees%20from%20the%20wild%20W%20Pall%20Part%20three.htm

Take a look at his [url=https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=https://www.walter-pall.de/&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=1&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dwalter%2Bpall%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26hs%3D3g8%26pwst%3D1]gallery[/url] to see if you think he is knowledgeable :D.

ynot

sailfins
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Yes,
I know what you mean.It's hard to visualize something that might take 5-10 years to accomplish.
It's difficult to think about a tree that may take 30 years to mature.
I am a very impatient person.That is one thing I am hoping to get out of this hobby,patience.
Thanks for the links. I will check them out.
I went to the library today and checked out somebooks.Time to read.....

ynot
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...Research is a beautiful thing man :D

ynot

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Sailfins,
HUH?
I cut it almost exactly as your picture indicated .within
a 1/2 an inch.Now your saying I cut it too short?
Well I'm not gonna sweat it.Not even slightly.
I think you're confusing one of Ynot's post for mine. I think it might be little low to get a shoot from the apex but only time will tell. Don't worry about it, you can learn something from everything you do, even if its what did not work.

I agree that collecting this will be a challenge. Perhaps now that it is so much shorter it won't be considered so offensive and you can talk your dad into leaving it for a while.

Norm

sailfins
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:oops: :oops: Sorry guys too many pictures I am getting confused.

Yes its gonna stay a while.
I found3-4 others that I cut off that are 1-2" dia.A couple chinese elms ,one oak and 2 maples.
all 4 are in with the lilacs.I will want to get a couple out before the lilacs start putting on leaves because the lilacs are super dense.
When I do I will take a picture.

ynot
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Gnome wrote: I think you're confusing one of Ynot's post for mine.
True that, I agree with Gnome that there may be issues here wrt bud placement....Time will tell.
[I would have expressed a preference for some angled chops given the time but....:P ;)]
My virt:
[url=https://imageshack.us][img]https://img115.imageshack.us/img115/7406/img0220ye2rc2.jpg[/img][/url]

Your chop:

[img]https://img265.imageshack.us/img265/3671/img0239ka7.jpg[/img]

Hopefully your dad will see Gnomes point about its current size. :)

Wait and see...Wait and see...
ynot

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Sailfins,

Chinese Elms huh, I think I would concentrate on these. They can make excellent bonsai. They, unlike Maples, will bud almost anywhere on the trunk. Unless they are very tall don't chop them if you are going to dig them. The foliage will help the tree recover from its loss of roots. The trunks can be chopped later. If they are very large you could reduce them a bit. Pictures of these please.

WRT the Maple, keep us posted. We are all just guessing what will happen.

Norm

sailfins
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chinese elms grow like weeds around here.I really don't care for them.
But I will keep my eye on one or two.Just in case.We mow them over all the time.My folks have 3 acres in trees.I am lucky.

constantstaticx3
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So sailfins how 'bout an update.

How are your trees doing?

Did they bud out and how well?

I am very curious as to how everything is going :D .


Tom

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