japanese larch

[newtothis123]

I recently bought a young japanese larch and want to make it an informal upright. The bottom of the tree has nice trunk curves but halfway up the tree it just straightens out. I've heard that with japanese larch the buds don't erupt right below the cut like on most trees. I don't know what to do, any help would be appreciated. https://m1063.photobucket.com/albumview/albums/newtothis123/1335908180.jpg.html?o=0

[kdodds]

AFAIK, larch will backbud aplenty, you may be thinking of pines? My larch backbuds all down the trunk, anyway. If you're going to do anything, cut the trunk above the bar branches. Make the left one the new leader and the right your first branch. BUT, check on the backbudding thing first. Like I said, mine has buds up and down the trunk. That said, the material you're working with looks pretty young to do anything but grow out, IMO. That is, unless you plan on clipping and growing for 40 or 50 years.

[newtothis123]

Yeah about that bar branch, one of the branches needs to go right? If I do let it grow.

[kdodds]

Yes, bar branches will lead to swelling in the area and reverse taper. Not so much to worry about now exactly, but I think my original statement about wiring one up stands.

[TomM]

Didn't know you could grow larch where you live (Sonoma, CA). Always think of them as a really cold climate tree. I have plenty and consider larch my favorites for bonsai.

[newtothis123]

Thanks for the advice, but I don't follow. Do you mean keep the bar branch for now, wire the tree,and let it grow? If so when should I remove the branch? And when do I start to pinch for ramifacation?

[kdodds]

Maybe Tom can confirm the backbudding thing. Two courses to take:

If Larch back buds readily and mine is not a fluke, remove one of the bar branches (preferably the weaker of the two) . Leave the remaining bar branch as a sacrificial that will help to thicken the trunk before you chop (at the very least) or to be pulled up as a new leader if the taper is right.

If it does not back bud readily, chop the main trunk above the bar branches and pull the stronger of the two up as the new leader with wire.

Sounds like Tom is a lot more experienced with Larch, so I'd wait for him to confirm. On the zone... depends on where you look and who you trust, But I don't think I've ever seen Japanese Larch listed above zone 7, most commonly, 2-6. American Larch I've seen listed 2-8, and European 2-7. Trying to grow on the cusp of zone 10 is probably not advisable.

Similar trees you might consider are Dawn Redwood (5-arguably 10, more likely and Bald Cypress (easily to zone 9, possibly 10 or 11).

[newtothis123]

Alright thanks. Would it matter what time of year that I cut the branch, its a month into spring in CA.

[kdodds]

Okay... I did a little investigating for you...

Treat Larch as Pine, basically. If you cut any portion of the tree back past any new growth, you will kill that portion (branch, trunk, whatever). Old buds do not always break (they lay dormant). So, hard pruning is important while it is growing. Guess I'm just really lucky with the one I have. What this means, for you, is that if you want newer, lower growth, you'll have to cut back hard to the point were there is innermost growth. This would mean that you kind of want to commit, for better or worse, and cut those bar branches back to the innermost point of active growth, and well as the trunk, and then hold your breath and wait. Personally, I'd go right ahead and do that since it's a) probably not going to over-winter well anyway and b) going to have an extended growth period anyway. You'll want to keep chopping back throughout the growing season to get any dormant buds to open. If none do and next spring rolls around and the tree is still alive, repeat next growing season. If still nothing, let it grow and let the trunk thicken, favoring side growth and inner growth over upper and outer growth.

As a first bonsai tree, I would never pick Larch, especially not for someone in a subtropical zone.

[newtothis123]

Thank you

[TomM]

Your one photo doesn't provide me with a lot to go on. In your first post you start the discussion with the curves at the bottom of the trunk and how it then straightens out. If this tree is as young/small as I think it is I would totally wire it (in Fall) to create the nice curvy movement that you want. I would probably remove most of the branch on the right side - leaving a stump for jin, assuming this is the front view. It is on the inside of the first curve. Keep all branches on outside curves where possible. I would not do major chops as suggested until after you know that this tree is actually going to survive in your climate. Except where you have bar branching you should keep all other branches to grow the tree out for 3-5 years. Especially lower ones.

To me your location is the biggest issue. Larches love, and need, cold dormancy. In northern climes they are not (IMO) difficult trees for beginners, certainly not like pines. They do back bud readily and are quite easy to work with.

Pinching for ramification should be delayed until the tree is fully grown out and styled - years into the future.

[newtothis123]

Thank you I uploaded a couple more pictures, when can I remove one of the branches? The nursery I bought it from is in the same zone and they said they grow well for them. [/img][url]https://s1063.photobucket.com/albums/t501/newtothis123/[/url]

[TomM]

I wouldn't be in a hurry to cut anything. Bonsai is all about patience. In the Fall, when needles drop off, I would wire the trunk and primary branches into place - and then decide what to cut. As mentioned earlier you should consider stumps for jin.

In the meantime concentrate on studying your tree. Determine what you want it to be in 5 years, 10 years. Then plan how to get it there. Wiring will be the "brush strokes" to create the art work. Random cutting now will accomplish little. Let it grow.

[kdodds]

Agree, conditionally. If your trunk is as fat as you want it to be, encouragin back budding should take precedence because, to be convincing, you're going to need some lower growth. Unless, of course, you sell out for a "literati" just to have something before the tree is ready to BE anything. Being an apex-preference tree, the longer you allow the growth to become, the more die back you'll see on lower on the trunk and in the interior branches. Like I said, only growing one larch here, but this is pretty basic stuff with regards to pines, spruce, etc., whether they're in a pot, in the ground, or part of your suburban landscape.

[newtothis123]

Thank you everyone, I now have a pretty good idea of what I'm going do.

[TomM]

kdodds makes good points here. Please follow through and keep us informed as you develop your larch. You will most certainly want to have other trees to work with - some in various stages - as the growing hobby becomes an obsession and a rewarding art form.

For dodds - Have you ever ventured into literati styles (intentionally) just for the pure simplicity?

[kdodds]

Oh, yes... I have a Virginia Live Oak that is MANY years away from ever being something. There are some truly exceptional literati bonsai, when they're done right, out there. But, most of what I see selling or developed as literati is more akin to "mallsai"... trees that have little to know value as bonsai that are then wired and clipped simply because they've barked over and could pass for trees. You know what I mean? Things like long, leggy, "house plant" Ficus or Crassula, things of that nature. When gone for with a purpose, not because there's absolutely no other recourse, though, literati can be exquisite.

[TomM]

So true - I agree 100%

[Marc]

found this post when researching for my 6ft larch

1, can you show us an update of how you got on with your larch

2, can anoye assist me further on mine?


https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/vi ... =1&t=54437




thanks

[newtothis123]

I ended up just letting it grow. Its about twice its size now and seems really healthy. I think I'm still a couple years away from making any major cuts. I have about twenty other trees I am also working with, all still very young.

[tomc]

2, can anoye assist me further on mine?

Please start chops in the spring time, not in august.