sandman
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is collecting trees from the forest illegal

just wondering cuz I went to the foothill of CA today and I saw some pretty cool oak trees that I wouldnt mind gettin my hands on

constantstaticx3
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I would think it depends on your local laws. Ask around.

Tom
Last edited by constantstaticx3 on Sun Mar 18, 2007 7:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ynot
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The short answer is :

Yes, And it is no laughing matter.

From the North American Bonsai Federation newsletter #8
Trees cannot be collected from forestland or private property without permission or a permit.
This quote was in direct reference to California.

If it is on private property [it is someone elses property] collecting it without their permission constitutes theft.

If it is State or Federal property then you have an even bigger potential problem on your hands [Don't forget that those 'roadside' trees are on public property.

California [As I understand it ] has some of the stricter policies in the country wrt this although you can get a permit.

I am sure google or a local bonsai club could provide you with the proper contacts to get a permit.

How about a picture of it anyway? [No permit required :)]

I don't know if you are an experienced collector or not but here is a three part series about collecting By a World Class Bonsai artist:

https://www.bonsai4me.com/AdvTech/ATcollectring%20trees%20from%20the%20wild%20W%20Pall.htm
https://www.bonsai4me.com/AdvTech/ATcollectring%20trees%20from%20the%20wild%20W%20Pall%20Part%20two.htm
https://www.bonsai4me.com/AdvTech/ATcollectring%20trees%20from%20the%20wild%20W%20Pall%20Part%20three.htm

See his gallery of [url=https://walter-pall.de/galerie.htm]hundreds of trees here.[/url]

Enjoy the links and please do post some pics :)

ynot

sandman
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no I'm not that experienced but I have collected a couple oaks winter 2005, like 10 black walnuts and an almond tree and they lived, not saying I did it right but for some reason I have good luck with plants, ive only had I think 2 out of 30-35 die but one of them was a juniper that I'm pretty sure I bought dead and the other was a very tropical bromeliad that went in my dart frog vivarium that just got to much water and very fine peat soil that didnt ever dry out. ok kool atleast I know its not a good idea unless I have permission and thanks for the links will be reading them later tonight . thanks again for all the info and I'm workin on getting a digital cam so I can post some pic.
jacob\
p.s. the walnuts and almond were just right across the street from my house in the middle of the road on a canal so I don't think anyone really cared. somebody would have just killed them any way so I was doing them a favor

sandman
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wow lots of info in those links I'm gonna have to read that like 50 more times to even comprehend some of that . thanks again and will be looking on how to get a permit and or permission from land owner. oh and how would u go about asking somebody if u can go dig up a tree or two from there property . just knock on the door and ask ? or explan what u want it for and that it will be like u were never there filling holes,possible planting something else near by or in the same spot etc.
once again thanks for the info and will be letting u know how hard it is to get a permit if I have to get one.

sandman
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what kind of permit would I be looking for cuz I cant really find anything but christmas tree permits oh and mushrooms but thats not like digging up a tree that would be cutting it down

sandman
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I cant find anything pertaining to this

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Gnome
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Sandman,
what kind of permit would I be looking for cuz I cant really find anything but christmas tree permits oh and mushrooms but thats not like digging up a tree that would be cutting it down
Sorry I can't help you with this I have never collected from public land only my own, relatives or private owners where verbal permission is sufficient. Not to mention that I am in PA.
just knock on the door and ask ? or explan what u want it for and that it will be like u were never there filling holes,possible planting something else near by or in the same spot etc.
I would only think it necessary to replace a plant that is dug from a landscape situation, which is a good way to find a lot of good material. If digging in a field, pasture or woodlot, replacing the plant would not be an issue. You would still try to minimize any disturbance though.

Norm

ynot
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Sandman,

Yeah, There is a lot of info in those links-No doubt.:)
what kind of permit would I be looking for cuz I cant really find anything but christmas tree permits oh and mushrooms but thats not like digging up a tree that would be cutting it down
Check out Googles list of [url=https://www.google.com/search?q=pa+bonsai+clubs&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a]PA bonsai clubs[/url].
I would contact your local one for your states requirements, Just email them and ask.

Here are a couple of PA clubs to get you started: https://pabonsai.org/ [Do check out the Kathy Shaner Photo Journal on this page btw, Awesome! 8).]
[url=https://pittsburghbonsai.org/index.html]Pittsburgh Bonsai Society[/url]

If you need to find out who owns the land, Property Tax records [and plot info for rural areas] is publicly available at the local courthouse. [and may be published yearly- as I recall].
Your states Dept. of Conservation is another avenue to explore. [IE: Thats who regulates the parks system in IL anyway.]

You mentioned being in California though which gives you an entire additional set of issues for any collected material to deal with. IE: Transport, & The time that takes, Climate variations and acclimation to the new 'home climate', That these possible Yami have not been previously worked at all prior to collection [IE: Trenching] Etc.
oh and how would u go about asking somebody if u can go dig up a tree or two from there property . just knock on the door and ask ? or explan what u want it for and that it will be like u were never there filling holes,possible planting something else near by or in the same spot etc.
once again thanks for the info and will be letting u know how hard it is to get a permit if I have to get one
.
The more the landowners understand about what your intentions are, The better IMO [And you give excellent examples of what the landowner should know about what your intentions are].

I have only ever collected off of private property [with permission] So I am not entirely sure how many regulatory hoops you may have to jump through.
All the 'legal hoops' are a large part of the reason I strive not to notice nice Yami on public lands...:lol:

I do believe that permission is easier to get than forgiveness, Sometimes people [or regulatory agencies] are not very forgiving you know. ;)

I have a tendency to provide an avalanche of info..:lol: So, I am sorry for that. I do hope that you will find some of it helpful [Athough you will be far older by the time you finish it all. ;)]
ok kool atleast I know its not a good idea unless I have permission and thanks for the links will be reading them later tonight . thanks again for all the info and I'm workin on getting a digital cam so I can post some pic.
Your very welcome, I hope you get a lot more good stuff.
I just don't want you to inadvertently get into a heap of preventable trouble you know?

I look forward to the pictures [eventually]
Good luck man! 8)

ynot

sandman
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avalanche of info indeed but I am very greatful people are willing to take the time to give that info cuz with out I would be lost. once again thanks and will get back if I find anything out

ynot
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Sandman,

...I just noticed your location is listed as Cali.....:?:

I have no idea where I got the idea you are in Pa [I know Gnome is...but..?]

EDIT: I see somewhere in my avalanche I got mixed up...:oops: { I don't make a habit of it..:lol:}


All the web research still holds [It is just much sunnier ;) ]

My apologies for that.
ynot

sandman
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Location: hilmar california

no problem at all ynot info is info even if it like half the US away :D

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tarian
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A field right next to my house is bursting full of tree 's crying to be made into bonsai(or is that just the rain lol) the area well any plot of land in the councils grasp are turing into houseing estates so I'm just doing them a lil favour by picking stuff up before it gets bulldosed


p.s my fathers rambeling on about to large jumipers he'll be asking them to dig up
so try find some were where theyr not wanted

ynot
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tarian wrote:...so I'm just doing them a lil favour by picking stuff up before it gets bulldosed
That viewpoint does not change the fact I mentioned earlier:
I quote my first post in this thread- This applies to public property also
ynot wrote: If it is on private property [It is someone else's property] collecting it without their permission constitutes theft.
tarian wrote:so try find some were where theyr not wanted
...And get permission.
The law is very clear about taking something that is not yours, It's just that simple. It is a different story if it is your property of course.
ynot

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tarian
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the council in my area take no prisoners with items theyr about to make into another council housing estate so in my view and if you where here youd be desprate to find any interesting yami

ynot
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tarian wrote:the council in my area take no prisoners with items theyr about to make into another council housing estate so in my view and if you where here youd be desprate to find any interesting yami
You cannot possibly have any basis on which to determine what makes me:as you say:
so in my view and if you where here youd be desprate to find any interesting yami
.
Desperation is a cologne I do not wear, Sorry-Does not apply.

Trying to use the councils actions to justify theft is not going to be a very effective/convincing argument. Here or elsewhere.

FWIW "find" is quite a bit different than '"Commit theft as I Collect Illegally".

I am sure many of us are curious to see these inspiring yamadori, Please start a thread to show lots pictures of these interesting Yami that you were so "desprate" to collect.
Specimens so singular and individual in their character, Age and feeling that this "desprate-tion" took over and you were compelled to collect.

Please post many pictures with close ups of the fantastic nebari, Taper, Trunk flare ect.
Don't forget to include such info as species, Date collected, Any work you have done on it {Root wok-Chops, Etc}

I think most people would be very interested to see what you are actually getting.

ynot

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tarian
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I will do so on sunday

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Gnome
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Tarian,

If the ground you mention is indeed slated for construction I would think that obtaining the required permission should not be too difficult. Please reconsider collecting any material without doing so. I would prefer that you not post any more about material obtained without permission. If you have not done so already take a look at the sticky about collecting ethics.

Norm



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