pine help

[tarian]

when pine needles are long to shoten them can I cut them to the lenth I wish or would they die back
tarian

[Gnome]

Tarian,

when pine needles are long to shoten them can I cut them to the lenth I wish

This is not an approach that I would take to shorten needles. A very specific pruning technique is used to shorten Pine needles. I am only beginning to work with Pines so take this for what it is worth.

With Black Pines, for instance, the entire candle is removed part way through the season so the new growth will not have as long a growing season and will therefore remain shorter. This also increases ramification since what was once one shoot will become 2 or more. This increase in ramification serves to distribute the trees energies among more and more growing points, reducing the growth rate of any one.

This is a very simplistic version of what will take me years to fully comprehend. But there are other things to consider. Your tree is in its dormant period now so you should not be considering any of this at this time of year. Also if this is a younger plant it may not be ready for this type of work yet. [url=https://www.evergreengardenworks.com/pines.htm]Here[/url] is a link that you may find interesting.

Norm

[tarian]

thanks gnome

[Gnome]

Tarian,

You are welcome. If you intend to get serious about Pines may I suggest a book that has helped me. Stone Lantern Publishing, the publishers of Bonsai Today) have a book out that recaps years worth of articles from their magazine. It covers both Japanese Black and White Pines. It is entitled, 'Pines growing and styling Japanese Black & White Pines'

Norm

[Bonsaimatt]

Yeah I'm going to be diving into black pines aswell soon. Starting with seeds (my wife did an order for me online, I wasn't planning on pine seeds, she just got them for me ). From some places I hear they are tough to grow, and others say it's easy to do. What do you think?

I also read something on evergreengardens.com (I think thats where I saw it) about pruning pines that said there's more than one method to it. There they mention the pruning of a percent of a candle (ie, 25% of the candle gets removed); have you tried these yet? do you know how they work?

But my most serious question (in relation to pines, spec. black pines) is:

Should I have a very sandy soil mix for all stages of a black pines' life?

[ynot]

\Yeah I'm going to be diving into black pines aswell soon. Starting with seeds (my wife did an order for me online, I wasn't planning on pine seeds, she just got them for me ). From some places I hear they are tough to grow, and others say it's easy to do. What do you think?

I don't do pines myself, Which is why I have stayed away from this thread... But I do know the answer to your 'serious question'...

I also read something on evergreengardens.com (I think thats where I saw it) about pruning pines that said there's more than one method to it. There they mention the pruning of a percent of a candle (ie, 25% of the candle gets removed); have you tried these yet? do you know how they work?

[url=https://evergreengardenworks.com/pines2.htm]Was it this article?[/url]
[url=https://evergreengardenworks.com/pines.htm]Here's another article on pines from EGW.[/url]
My understanding [Untested, Mind you] of the principle is that it redirects the focus of the trees growth dependent of the % of the candles length that is pruned.

But my most serious question (in relation to pines, spec. black pines) is:

Should I have a very sandy soil mix for all stages of a black pines' life?

I have it on good authority that pines love an inorganic soil. [Sand or otherwise...Sand is good though.]

ynot

[Bonsaimatt]

yeah that was the one.

So should I use alot of sand for germinating black pine seeds, as well as using alot of sand for when those seeds get a bit older?

[Gnome]

Matt,

I am one year ahead of you in growing pines from seed, I had pretty good luck and have learned a lot. I'll offer a few thoughts. Unless you have a very large amount of seeds I suggest you start them all for a number of reasons. They may not all germinate, of those that do some may die in the seed flat, when you cut the roots (more on that below) many more will fail to re-root. Of those that survive any number of mishaps may befall them, for instance I have had trouble with squirrels eating the tender buds that were forming in late Summer. Finally, not every individual will necessarily make a quality bonsai.

For soil in my seed flat I used the fines that I screened from my regular mix. My usual practice is to remove anything that falls through a 1/8 screen. But hating to discard this material I sieve it one step further through a 1/16 screen. anything that falls through that is literally dust and is discarded. What stays on top is everything my usual mix is just on a smaller scale, still pretty loose and free draining just smaller. I use this for seedlings and cuttings. This is what I started my seed in last Spring.

After the roots were cut I potted the seedlings into individual pots using the larger scale mix I just described. They remained in this situation throughout the remainder of the season and will be re-potted this Spring.

I mentioned cutting the roots. This is a very interesting technique that involve the complete removal of roots on the new seedlings. this is done to overcome the strong tap root and begin the all important process of creating a good nebari. I know this sounds radical and it is I lost 40% of mine during this stage but without it you will be fighting to create a good nebari for years to come. Better to get it started early and not spend years working on inferior material.

As far as pruning techniques go, yes there is more than one approach but it will be several years before this becomes an issue for you. The early years are simply growing time. If you are serious about pines please do yourself the favor of acquiring the volume I cited. I can talk you through this year pretty easily but there is a lot to learn about pines.

Pines love good drainage and full sun, which means fairly frequent watering especially if the weather is hot and dry. They will put on pretty good growth though. Here are a few pictures of this years work.

Norm

04-22-2006
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10-07-2006
[url=https://img252.imageshack.us/my.php?image=10072006rw6.jpg][img]https://img252.imageshack.us/img252/4205/10072006rw6.th.jpg[/img][/url]

[ynot]

yeah that was the one.

So should I use alot of sand for germinating black pine seeds, as well as using alot of sand for when those seeds get a bit older?

DISCLAIMER: I have only grown herbs from seed:

I think wrt germination it may be easiest to use some commercial mix for seeds and just amend it with your inorganic of choice to insure it is well draining.
If you use sand do make sure to use as course of a sand as possible- Not the playground sand which is far too fine.

Later on [seedlings and after] I would use a heavily inorganic fast draining potting medium.

Good luck
ynot

[Gnome]

Matt,

I kind of covered that just now but you got ahead of me Yes grit/drainage is good at all stages of growth. But be careful, not all sand is the same. Avoid fine grained sand such a play sand. All the components in a given mix should be approximately the same size or the smaller particles will filter in between your larger particles negating any advantage they would have provided. Think of sand filling in between marbles in a jar. You will need something a little coarser even for the seedlings.

Since you will need proper bonsai soil later in the season why not simply purchase it early. When you sieve it (yes this is required) you will have a certain percentage of smaller material that is useful for seedlings.

Norm

[Bonsaimatt]

cool thanks guys. I have about 30 seeds coming to me. I still need to get a flat (should it be covered or uncovered?). There is instructions for germ. the seeds coming with the package, that might answer that. I also got a cool turntable coming too! That's been much needed. Papertowels and cat litter boxes are just not preventing my table from getting sratched! neways, Well I'll try some of those methods and see how they work out. My idea is, the 30 seeds cost 4.95. Although I don't want to loss money on the deal, I am prepared to loss a bit. Like John said about losing bonsai, it's just part of learning . Later guys!!

[Gnome]

Matt,

I still need to get a flat (should it be covered or uncovered?)

Take a close look at the picture of the flat above. It is nothing more than a meat tray that some groceries are using now. 30 seeds should fit nicely in one. Make sure you poke a fair amount of holes in it to provide drainage. If you do cover it make sure that it does not stay overly moist and be sure to remove the cover as the seedlings emerge. I did not cover mine.

Norm

[tarian]

they are quite hard but comercialy black and white pines are grafted onto each others root stock for some strange reason

[ynot]

they are quite hard but comercialy black and white pines are grafted onto each others root stock for some strange reason

Actually not, It doesn't work both ways.

The white pine scions are grafted onto the black pines rootstock as the black root system is more vigorous and the tree grows faster.

When done well it is hardly noticable...other times....well..

ynot

[Bonsaimatt]

well I found (at lowes!) a $7 tray black plastic system that has three sets in it. Each set is: a drain catch pan, seed or cutting holds (72 spaces each times 3 flats, so a total of 216), and a removable clear plastic top. What a deal!! I got some ficuses from lowes then too, they were to tall so I chopped them down a bit and planted the cuttings with some rooting H. We'll see what happens I guess .

So for my blackpines seeds, I got some $3.99 seed starter, and I should just put the seeds in the tray spots, keep them uncovered and watered, away from full sun (right?) and pray they all stay alive right?

[Gnome]

Matt,

So for my blackpines seeds, I got some $3.99 seed starter, and I should just put the seeds in the tray spots, keep them uncovered and watered, away from full sun (right?) and pray they all stay alive right?

What is the seed starter composed of? Primarily peat I would wager. If so my next question is how long do you intend to leave them in the starter mix?

If you intend to re-pot them quickly you might be all right with that product, and if you intend to follow the method that I outlined above all of the old roots will be removed anyway.

If, on the other hand, you want to leave them alone for the season you will need to start with pots that are large enough and provide a mix that has excellent drainage, which the starter mix probably does not. Perlite is a good component for seed mixes and is readily available.

If you follow the second method you will need to do a fair amount of work on the roots at the next re-potting. You will need to remove the taproot and arrange the roots you leave in a radial pattern.

By cutting the roots off this year and then treating them like cuttings you are really way ahead of the curve in producing a good nebari for the future bonsai. As I noted above this is not without some drawbacks as you will surely lose a good percentage of them. I lost some in the seed flat and about 40% of the remaining ones due to the root chop. But I feel that it was worth it to ensure good quality rootage. Then again I started with a lot more seeds that were collected for free so I was not so concerned about loss.

Norm

[Bonsaimatt]

humm.. Good points. I'll have to think of what I want to do. I got my seeds in on sunday! The package says to 24 hours water, then 60 days, then plant. I'm sure you know the package, imported by dallas gardens. Is this the right time of year to start?

[alexp]

Thats an incredible deal for flats! I only have one tree, so not much need for them at this point, but I will have to keep that in mind for when I decide to start from seeds.

[Bonsaimatt]

yeah they are pretty nice, the clear plastic lid closes evenly across unlike most plastic stuff. I don't know how strong they are against outside weather, but they look strong. I'll post that info when I get it

oh yeah, the spaces for each plant are about 1 - 1.5 inches across and maybe 2 inches deep. Great for starting life I guess!

[Gnome]

Matt,

The package says to 24 hours water, then 60 days, then plant

It is my understanding that Black Pines do not require a stratification/cold chilling period in order to germinate. The Bonsai Today book on pines suggests keeping them in a cool dry place until planting time. Soaking them for several days then planting. I have successfully germinated another two needle pine variety (Scots Pine) this way.

Is this the right time of year to start?

I really prefer to start seeds outside when the weather is warm enough. I feel that there is not a lot to gain by starting a few months early with a project that will take decades to come to fruition. Our homes are really ill suited to this activity. This is not to say that it cannot be done but you will need good supplemental lighting. I like to grow seedlings in larger groups and this is another reason that I prefer to take the natural route, I simply don't have enough room or inclination to grow a large quantities of seedlings inside when outside takes so much less work and is better for the trees in the long run.

Norm

[Bonsaimatt]

yeah I took a few out of the bag, put them in water til 10:00pm tonight, then all the pines (maybe not 1 or 2) will go into the fridge for 60 days (14 apr) it should be warmer by then. The others will go into soil now, and the other half of the bag is waiting until later. So this way I can do all three and see what works best.

[Gnome]

Matt,

So this way I can do all three and see what works best.

Certainly cannot argue with that, make sure to keep us posted on what you learn.

Norm

[Bonsaimatt]

will do. Thanks dude!