mamfle
Full Member
Posts: 23
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:02 am
Location: Cambridgeshire UK

ID crisis

Help me.. i have been trying to ID this Bonsai all weekend but i am still not sure of what it could be, my guess is crab apple.

It was a gift from my mother. she said she found it in ill health in a garden centre and knew that i could help it, all the tag said was that it was a bonsai variety and that the specimen is 7/8 years old.
I have taken a few pictures but they are not the best, i have problems with the workings of the camera sorry.
[url]https://www.buffyuk.org/forum/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=964[/url]
[url]https://www.buffyuk.org/forum/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=965[/url]
[url]https://www.buffyuk.org/forum/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=966[/url]

ynot
Greener Thumb
Posts: 1219
Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2006 12:49 pm
Location: USDA Z:5a Sunset Z. 41 IL

Re: ID crisis

mamfle wrote:Help me.. I have been trying to ID this Bonsai all weekend but I am still not sure of what it could be, my guess is crab apple.
My guess is that this was in the greenhouse and not outside. Is that correct?

Since they [Malus] are deciduous and certainly cold hardy enough for the Eastern UK, I doubt this would be kept inside.
If it were a crab apple, It would also be showing some amazing fall colors at the moment. It would be extremely rare to find it as a bonsai at a regular garden center anyway.
mamfle wrote: It was a gift from my mother. she said she found it in ill health in a garden centre and knew that I could help it, all the tag said was that it was a bonsai variety and that the specimen is 7/8 years old.
I can't quite tell as the pics are a bit blurry.
Not knowing the size and being unable to see the trunk texture [or if the leaves are opposed] I might guess any where from ficus retusa to perhaps [not likely] a boxwood? [which again should be outside]

I am not sure.

ynot

mamfle
Full Member
Posts: 23
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:02 am
Location: Cambridgeshire UK

Sorry about the lack of information, it just proves how much of a novice i am :s

The bonsai is indoors and it's hight from the base of the tree is 20 centimeters. The leaves are oval and have a rough texture to them. The buds are about 1/2 cm long and i would describe them as five little fingers lightly clasping a ball, i am persuming that they will flower but i could be wrong

i will try and get some better pictures this evening and post them up

ynot
Greener Thumb
Posts: 1219
Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2006 12:49 pm
Location: USDA Z:5a Sunset Z. 41 IL

mamfle wrote: Sorry about the lack of information, it just proves how much of a novice I am :s
lol...No problem mate, I have your answer. :D
mamfle wrote:
The leaves are oval and have a rough texture to them. The buds are about 1/2 cm long and I would describe them as five little fingers lightly clasping a ball, I am persuming that they will flower but I could be wrong
The rough texture of the leaves gives it away.
It is a Fukien Tea tree [Carmona Microphylla, Also called Ehretia Buxifolia]

Here is a care sheet for it: https://www.bonsai4me.com/SpeciesGuide/Carmona.html as well as a few links about general bonsai care.
An introduction: https://www.bonsai4me.com/Basics/Basics_Intro.html
And a few more key issues to read up on:
https://www.evergreengardenworks.com/bonsaip.htm
https://www.evergreengardenworks.com/bonsaibe.htm
https://www.bonsai4me.com/Basics/Basics_StartingOut.html
https://www.bonsai4me.com/Basics/Basics_Indoor.html
https://www.bonsai4me.com/Basics/Basics_Watering.html

These two sites I linked to are exceptional wrt to easily understood information. They each have multiple articles pertaining to many aspects of bonsai.
mamfle wrote: I will try and get some better pictures this evening and post them up
That will be excellent. Always nice to see [more of a] a new tree. 8)

I encourage you to read the sticky about Soil and see how your current potting medium stacks up, Do ask if you have any more questions about bonsai.
Good luck,
ynot

mamfle
Full Member
Posts: 23
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:02 am
Location: Cambridgeshire UK

Thank you so much for your help and the advice links you have given me are great. i will enjoy reading how to care for this little beauty and hopefully it will out live me

ynot
Greener Thumb
Posts: 1219
Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2006 12:49 pm
Location: USDA Z:5a Sunset Z. 41 IL

Your very welcome. :D

mamfle
Full Member
Posts: 23
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:02 am
Location: Cambridgeshire UK

I am a bit stuck for idea's.. to be honest i would say that it's trying to be a broom style.. any idea's?

oh and here are some better pictures

Top View [url]https://www.buffyuk.org/forum/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=967[/url]
Bad Side [url]https://www.buffyuk.org/forum/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=968[/url]
Best side [url]https://www.buffyuk.org/forum/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=969[/url]
Another Good Side [url]https://www.buffyuk.org/forum/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=970[/url]

Petra26
Cool Member
Posts: 94
Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2006 2:23 pm
Location: Chicago, IL

nice tree :D

Sharp
Senior Member
Posts: 139
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2005 4:42 pm

mamfle wrote:I am a bit stuck for idea's.. to be honest I would say that it's trying to be a broom style.. any idea's?

oh and here are some better pictures

Top View [url]https://www.buffyuk.org/forum/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=967[/url]
Bad Side [url]https://www.buffyuk.org/forum/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=968[/url]
Best side [url]https://www.buffyuk.org/forum/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=969[/url]
Another Good Side [url]https://www.buffyuk.org/forum/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=970[/url]

Very nice tree.

Yea it already seems to have a nice shape for a broom style. You'll pretty much just need shape it like a shrub. The leaves are very tight together and will just burst out of hard bark alot of times.

ynot
Greener Thumb
Posts: 1219
Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2006 12:49 pm
Location: USDA Z:5a Sunset Z. 41 IL

Mamfle,

You could attempt to broom this allthough personally I don't think it is suitable material for that style.
[Take a peek here and see if you can see why I say that: https://images.google.com/images?q=broom+style+bonsai&ndsp=20&svnum=10&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&start=0&sa=N ]

An informal upright would be a far shorter distance to go as far as styling IMO.

[I think there is a misconception here in assuming that because it is round-ish It's a broom. ]

First I want to ask you why you feel that this is the best view?
I am curious as to how you decided this, What criteria makes this view better than the others?

This one was labled 'Best'
[img]https://img86.imageshack.us/img86/7163/indexom6.jpg[/img]

Then 'good'

[img]https://img100.imageshack.us/img100/2451/indexos8.jpg[/img]

Then 'bad'

[img]https://img100.imageshack.us/img100/2848/indexeb2.jpg[/img]

I am just interested in knowing what attributes you see as +/- wrt the different possible 'fronts' of this tree.

You can greatly improve this tree, But you will need a plan, and a destination.
8)
ynot.

mamfle
Full Member
Posts: 23
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:02 am
Location: Cambridgeshire UK

Well in all honesty i was looking at the gerneral condition of the tree, the sides that where marked best and good where in my opinion the healthy sides of the tree, the other side with the new growth i have been classing as the recovering side.

as to which side is the front / back i have no idea. there are twigs shooting out all over the place lol

ynot
Greener Thumb
Posts: 1219
Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2006 12:49 pm
Location: USDA Z:5a Sunset Z. 41 IL

mamfle wrote:Well in all honesty I was looking at the gerneral condition of the tree, the sides that where marked best and good where in my opinion the healthy sides of the tree, the other side with the new growth I have been classing as the recovering side.

as to which side is the front / back I have no idea. there are twigs shooting out all over the place lol
OK, You know that is a bit like choosing the front of your car by which side is cleanest. :P :wink: :lol:

Did you take a look at the page I linked to here?
ynot wrote:You could attempt to broom this allthough personally I don't think it is suitable material for that style. Take a peek here and see if you can see why I say that: https://images.google.com/images?q=broom+style+bonsai&ndsp=20&svnum=10&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&start=0&sa=N ]

{next issue Is the soil as we have not seen it yet, Please show a few well lit pictures of the soil.}

To my mind the middle picture of the three I posted is the front of your tree.
You have alot of 'eyepoker branches' either way [Branches that come straightout towards the viewer.] and some reverse taper in there as well I think.

ynot
Last edited by ynot on Thu Oct 26, 2006 7:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

mamfle
Full Member
Posts: 23
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:02 am
Location: Cambridgeshire UK

It just so happens that i do have a picture of the soil (and with the issues i have been having with the camera latly that is saying something)
[url]https://www.buffyuk.org/forum/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=971[/url]

I have ordered some more soil for it, one type is a mix of Akadama, Kyodama and baked clay granules and the other is mix is peat based with added Kyodama.

ynot
Greener Thumb
Posts: 1219
Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2006 12:49 pm
Location: USDA Z:5a Sunset Z. 41 IL

Again, Did you look at the google page ?

mamfle wrote:It just so happens that I do have a picture of the soil (and with the issues I have been having with the camera latly that is saying something)
[url]https://www.buffyuk.org/forum/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=971[/url] .
:shock: Ouch :shock:
You will find your watering habits will dramaticly change after your repot.
mamfle wrote: I have ordered some more soil for it, one type is a mix of Akadama, Kyodama and baked clay granules and the other is mix is peat based with added Kyodama.
You will be amazed at the difference. 8)

Have you looked at the link I posted?
ynot

mamfle
Full Member
Posts: 23
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:02 am
Location: Cambridgeshire UK

i did :?

I went with the broom option because of the basic shape the tree already has also i am a bit worried about jumping into wiring, i have been reading a few books and they said that now or in spring is the best time to do that.
i guess i am just worried about breaking a branch

ynot
Greener Thumb
Posts: 1219
Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2006 12:49 pm
Location: USDA Z:5a Sunset Z. 41 IL

mamfle wrote: I did :?
Ok, Did you notice that every single image of Broom style bonsai that you saw had a trunk that was absolutely straight and almost dead on 90 degrees wrt being vertical.
[This is an aspect of the style.]
Your trunk is not, It is both slanted and curved.
mamfle wrote: I went with the broom option because of the basic shape the tree already has also
[See my comment earlier about 'misconception']
Taking that approach severely limits your options. In fact I would say in this case you are limiting yourself to mistakes someone else made.
Very little progress is made via that policy.
mamfle wrote:I am a bit worried about jumping into wiring, I have been reading a few books and they said that now or in spring is the best time to do that.
I guess I am just worried about breaking a branch
It is an indoor tree- No seasonal requirements for it, Wiring is somethng you would not require for a while any way. This needs pruning, And that Is Going to break a few branches. You can clip-n-grow for a while though.

Actually if you had a plan for it you could be pruning it right now as the new growth buds are opening [or are open- getting late.]

Waiting means that the time and resources your tree is currently putting into growth will just be pruned away later.

By pruning now the tree uses those same resources to put on growth only in the areas you want [What you left to grow on after the pruning.] The end result is more directed growth right where you want it in the same amount of time, with the same resources from the tree.

Anyway don't worry so much about wiring. At this point it only has to be effective not pretty [It's not like your prepping for a show.]

It's your tree but IMO I honestly think broom is not the best route for this tree. I just don't see the tree in there as broom.
Your mileage may vary, 8)
ynot
Last edited by ynot on Thu Oct 26, 2006 8:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

mamfle
Full Member
Posts: 23
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:02 am
Location: Cambridgeshire UK

if because it's an indoor tree it has no seasonal requirements, is it possible to change to soil sooner rather then later?

before i start any pruning of any sort i will have a good look at different informal bonsai's and start a plan of action.

thanks for all your help so far and thank you in advance for your help in the future

ynot
Greener Thumb
Posts: 1219
Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2006 12:49 pm
Location: USDA Z:5a Sunset Z. 41 IL

mamfle wrote: if because it's an indoor tree it has no seasonal requirements, is it possible to change to soil sooner rather then later?
Yes that is entirely possible,
EDIT: I had completely forgotten that this tree was recovering and not in the best of health when I replied yes here.
The fact is I would have given a different answer, Later in this thread I do realize it and change my mind.

Is it potbound completely? -Important to know

Fukiens are not as tough as ficus [WRT rootwork] so I would be cautious about it unless absolutley required. Let us know about the state your soil/roots are in. Didn't look so good in the picture, But is it rootbound? That is the question
mamfle wrote: before I start any pruning of any sort I will have a good look at different informal bonsai's and start a plan of action.

thanks for all your help so far and thank you in advance for your help in the future
Do reread the care sheet in the species guide at bonsai4me for your tree, There is really not much need to wire it. Also review the conditions it enjoys also. always good to refresh on those things. 8)

Your very welcome.
ynot [img]https://img241.imageshack.us/img241/1939/u4jchinaec9.gif[/img]
Last edited by ynot on Thu Oct 26, 2006 11:43 am, edited 3 times in total.

mamfle
Full Member
Posts: 23
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:02 am
Location: Cambridgeshire UK

Right well i have checked the roots and they are not completly rootbound but they are not far from it either. i will et it re-potted at the weekend, i am missing a few surplies (most of everything to be exact lol)

I will revise prunning and the care sheet in the time being ani will get more pictures done after the re-potting

ynot
Greener Thumb
Posts: 1219
Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2006 12:49 pm
Location: USDA Z:5a Sunset Z. 41 IL

mamfle wrote:Right well I have checked the roots and they are not completly rootbound but they are not far from it either. I will et it re-potted at the weekend, I am missing a few surplies (most of everything to be exact lol)

I will revise prunning and the care sheet in the time being ani will get more pictures done after the re-potting
If it is not potbound then you have no emergency, Don't stress the tree if not needed, Or at least take pictures so we can see your definition of 'not far'
Does the rootmass take the shape and form of the inside of the pot? A solid mass of roots?

A bit like this :

[img]https://img329.imageshack.us/img329/6239/rootboundtc4.jpg[/img]

If not it is not pot bound and do not repot.

ynot

mamfle
Full Member
Posts: 23
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:02 am
Location: Cambridgeshire UK

ok i don't know how but i managed to get a picture of the root system
[url]https://www.buffyuk.org/forum/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=972[/url]

as you can see, it's not competly root bound but not far from it. either that or my opinion of root bound is way off

ynot
Greener Thumb
Posts: 1219
Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2006 12:49 pm
Location: USDA Z:5a Sunset Z. 41 IL

mamfle wrote:ok I don't know how but I managed to get a picture of the root system
[url]https://www.buffyuk.org/forum/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=972[/url]

as you can see, it's not competly root bound but not far from it. either that or my opinion of root bound is way off
Your right on, It still looks to have some soil in the mass there but it is on it's way.

Tell you what, Do a bit of reading in the soil/repotting/rootpruning sticky and the links within and let me know how confident you feel about it.

You don't have an emergency there and I hesiate to stress your tree while it is just now recovering... + I do NOT have a fukien so I am hesitant to tell you to go ahead...{I want no blood on my hands :wink: }

I understand you want to dig in but it may be better to wait. I wouldn't want to risk it considering the health of the tree is not spectacular at the moment.
I have a another idea, But it will wait for now.
Read up in those stickys ok?
ynot

mamfle
Full Member
Posts: 23
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:02 am
Location: Cambridgeshire UK

i will read up on them thisafternoon and let you know.

Your are right, I am eger to get my hands dirty so to speak but i will not risk the helth of an already sick tree. whatever desion i come to it will be what is best for the Fukien

ynot
Greener Thumb
Posts: 1219
Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2006 12:49 pm
Location: USDA Z:5a Sunset Z. 41 IL

mamfle wrote:I will read up on them thisafternoon and let you know.

Your are right, I am eger to get my hands dirty so to speak but I will not risk the helth of an already sick tree. whatever desion I come to it will be what is best for the Fukien
Repotting a sick tree is an 'in an emergency only' type situations, Which we don't have here.

In my reply above wrt repotting, I had forgotten :oops: that this was a sick 'rescue' tree that was gifted to you. I am sorry about that. :(

I have edited my post to relfect that oversight on my part.

ynot

mamfle
Full Member
Posts: 23
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:02 am
Location: Cambridgeshire UK

new pictures of my bonsai are below, going to repot it this weekend, i am happy that it is well enough for the op

[url]https://www.buffyuk.org/forum/index.php?act=attach&type=post&id=985[/url]
[url]https://www.buffyuk.org/forum/index.php?act=attach&type=post&id=986[/url]
[url]https://www.buffyuk.org/forum/index.php?act=attach&type=post&id=987[/url]
[url]https://www.buffyuk.org/forum/index.php?act=attach&type=post&id=988[/url]

ynot
Greener Thumb
Posts: 1219
Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2006 12:49 pm
Location: USDA Z:5a Sunset Z. 41 IL

Mamfle,

Sorry, Again, {I at least} Can't see them here either.

ynot

mamfle
Full Member
Posts: 23
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:02 am
Location: Cambridgeshire UK

yeah sorry, it's my fualt

how about these then?
[img]https://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t297/mamfle/DSCN0219.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t297/mamfle/DSCN0220.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t297/mamfle/DSCN0221.jpg[/img]

(crosses fingers)

ynot
Greener Thumb
Posts: 1219
Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2006 12:49 pm
Location: USDA Z:5a Sunset Z. 41 IL

I hate side scrolling...and am not afraid to say so...

Yep,

That works although the pic size is massive :(.

I am glad to see it recovered some, It is even showing a flower for the pic..lol. Wait until it is in proper soil and it will go crazy :).

FYI-It would have smaller leaves on it if you got it into a brighter spot.

Good luck with your repot, You have proper soil for it I take it?

ynot

mamfle
Full Member
Posts: 23
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:02 am
Location: Cambridgeshire UK

yeah sorry about that, finding the new laptop kinda hard to get my head around.

Yeah got soil well it's more like a gravel mixture for it last year from greendragon bonsai

Return to “BONSAI FORUM”