At an upcoming discussion with students we plan to explore this topic. But let's try it here too.
When is a plant or tree a real bonsai? What goes into its development? What is a "stick in a pot"? Why do we prune? Root prune? Wire? Fertilize? What goes into styling a tree? How many years does it take - how old must it be?
Let's toss this out and hear your thoughts.
Tom-MVBC
Bonsai ( bOn-'sI, sounds like bone-sigh ): a potted plant (as a tree) dwarfed and trained to an artistic shape by special methods of culture
bonsai (common): the difficult and often depressing art of killing such plants
Great idea, Tom. Let me organize my thoughts on it and I'll be glad to contribute.
bonsai (common): the difficult and often depressing art of killing such plants
Great idea, Tom. Let me organize my thoughts on it and I'll be glad to contribute.
I can think of some possible definitions that could be more true than the literal translation of "tray planting". I think that a tree can be called a finished bonsai when it could pass for a mature tree and is in a pot which complements it. A great bonsai is one which is able to tell a story. For example a formal upright might tell the story of a tree in full sunshine on the edge of a farmer's property. A phoenix grafted tree or one with many sharis would tell the story of a tree that has struggled with drought or damaging weather, but has survived it all.
For practical purposes, I think any tree that is reasonably developed and trained can be called a bonsai, even if it is in a grow box, a big pot, or the ground. Technically they would be bonsai-in-training, but that's just too much to say.
For me, a stick in a pot is just that, a stick in a pot. It is a tree that has been put into a small pot before its trunk has reached its final intended size.
Tom, I think this is a great idea, we don't have near enough discussion on this board, so I'll up the ante some. What exactly is bonsai? Is it just the tree, or can it be more?
For practical purposes, I think any tree that is reasonably developed and trained can be called a bonsai, even if it is in a grow box, a big pot, or the ground. Technically they would be bonsai-in-training, but that's just too much to say.
For me, a stick in a pot is just that, a stick in a pot. It is a tree that has been put into a small pot before its trunk has reached its final intended size.
Tom, I think this is a great idea, we don't have near enough discussion on this board, so I'll up the ante some. What exactly is bonsai? Is it just the tree, or can it be more?
Bonsai is not just a tree, its an art form that many people around the world have joined together to do. When practicing the art of Bonsai, not only are you growing a tree, but its also growing you as a person.
To add to this discussion:
What is Bonsai soil? Is it just ordinary soil? Whats unique about Bonsai to you?
To add to this discussion:
What is Bonsai soil? Is it just ordinary soil? Whats unique about Bonsai to you?
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Victrinia Ridgeway
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- Location: Bremerton, WA
When is a plant or tree a real bonsai? That's a subjective question entirely dependant on the experiance and goals of the individual doing the work. I was quite pleased with my initial work years ago... which just makes me laugh now. I saw dimly through a keyhole of understanding. My definitions have evolved as my experiance and material have evolved. Forcing my interpertation on someone else with less experiance would be as laughable as Kimura forcing his on me. One can advise, and suggest, but only when the person is ready and willing to make the commitment to evolve will their definitions of this question ever change. I've seen utter noobs get spectacularly expensive bonsai, and having more money than sense - those jewels died. I've also seen some pretty rediculous homely excuses for a tree turned into something pretty amazing in the right hands. But when it's a "real" bonsai will always be interperted through the level of understanding the practitioner possesses.
What goes into its development? Knowledge of horticulture in confined spaces - and your region, and each species reactions to that enviornment are first. A natural affinity for art is second. Lack of the first will kill... lack of the second will make the frustrated would-be artist wish it would just die.
What is a "stick in a pot"? An immature tree/shrub which lacks taper, movement, or ramification - wholey lacking in visual interest.
Why do we prune? Root prune? Wire? Fertilize? See answer number two.
What goes into styling a tree? A knowledge of the merits and limits of a given subject's potential to be bonasi - just because a tree CAN be a bonsai doesn't mean is SHOULD be a bonsai. Knowledge of artistic principals which prevail in the art (flow and movement, balance of canopy and trunk, age vs. youth, masculine vs. feminine) - and the shear inspiration of nature itself. Knowledge of the stages of life for trees from seedling to death - so you can impose the correct phase the tree is able to represent. Knowledge of the physiology of trees by species so you know how you can bend what "can not be bent" - or grow where there is no growth. Intuition - passion - and commitment. Bonsai isn't a sprint, I don't care how many demos you watch on youtube. (Of course what you never know is how many years it took to bring the tree to that moment... or if it was recently collected, how many years it took nature to sculpt it first - often centuries - or how many more years it will take to actually get it into a pot.)
How many years does it take - how old must it be? Work with the largest oldest material available to you that suits your tastes/space/artistic goals. Realizing that it has to reflect the aspects of character and age, combined with proportion, that you enjoy most. If it is large already you have more to work with - design choices... or grow it yourself and be ready to invest 15-50 years to bring your dreams to fruition. The oldest material I currently have in the "pre-bonsai" stages are about 300-400 years old.
V
What goes into its development? Knowledge of horticulture in confined spaces - and your region, and each species reactions to that enviornment are first. A natural affinity for art is second. Lack of the first will kill... lack of the second will make the frustrated would-be artist wish it would just die.
What is a "stick in a pot"? An immature tree/shrub which lacks taper, movement, or ramification - wholey lacking in visual interest.
Why do we prune? Root prune? Wire? Fertilize? See answer number two.
What goes into styling a tree? A knowledge of the merits and limits of a given subject's potential to be bonasi - just because a tree CAN be a bonsai doesn't mean is SHOULD be a bonsai. Knowledge of artistic principals which prevail in the art (flow and movement, balance of canopy and trunk, age vs. youth, masculine vs. feminine) - and the shear inspiration of nature itself. Knowledge of the stages of life for trees from seedling to death - so you can impose the correct phase the tree is able to represent. Knowledge of the physiology of trees by species so you know how you can bend what "can not be bent" - or grow where there is no growth. Intuition - passion - and commitment. Bonsai isn't a sprint, I don't care how many demos you watch on youtube. (Of course what you never know is how many years it took to bring the tree to that moment... or if it was recently collected, how many years it took nature to sculpt it first - often centuries - or how many more years it will take to actually get it into a pot.)
How many years does it take - how old must it be? Work with the largest oldest material available to you that suits your tastes/space/artistic goals. Realizing that it has to reflect the aspects of character and age, combined with proportion, that you enjoy most. If it is large already you have more to work with - design choices... or grow it yourself and be ready to invest 15-50 years to bring your dreams to fruition. The oldest material I currently have in the "pre-bonsai" stages are about 300-400 years old.
V
Last edited by Victrinia Ridgeway on Tue Jan 18, 2011 5:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Victrinia Ridgeway
- Senior Member
- Posts: 264
- Joined: Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:46 am
- Location: Bremerton, WA
What is Bonsai soil? A composition of various substrates which make for optimal vapor exchange in the limited confines of a bonsai pot or trainnig container. Largely (or entirely) composed of inorganic material of the correct size relative to the size of the tree, each mix should be customized by species and growing zone to ensure optimal health and fine root growth.
Components designed for the purpose of bonsai can be expensive, but there are some alternatives which are equally acceptable. Whatever you use make sure it is airy and free draining - and has the staying power to not break down in 2-3 years. If one lives in arid climates organic additives will help keep the tree from stressing out on particularly hot days - though shade creation is critical in those enviornments as well. Humidity tables/trays can also help off-set those conditions - remembering that the complete drying out of bonsai soil because of transpiration of water through the leaves can lead to die-back and death in protracted situations - and depending on the location/species/size of the tree that can be a matter of hours on a hot day.
Is it just ordinary soil? Not if one is seeking optimal health and fine root growth. Remember... it's all about controling the growth and enviornment of the tree, and the most critical area of control is the soil composition - because nothing will kill a tree more surely than bad soil. Some people think it's watering technique - but no... with the right soil you could water until the cows come home and no more water will be retained than is needed no matter what.
Whats unique about Bonsai to you? The combonation of science, art and soul - all married in one thing. My love affair with it is deep and persistant - because it feeds every aspect of my nature.
Components designed for the purpose of bonsai can be expensive, but there are some alternatives which are equally acceptable. Whatever you use make sure it is airy and free draining - and has the staying power to not break down in 2-3 years. If one lives in arid climates organic additives will help keep the tree from stressing out on particularly hot days - though shade creation is critical in those enviornments as well. Humidity tables/trays can also help off-set those conditions - remembering that the complete drying out of bonsai soil because of transpiration of water through the leaves can lead to die-back and death in protracted situations - and depending on the location/species/size of the tree that can be a matter of hours on a hot day.
Is it just ordinary soil? Not if one is seeking optimal health and fine root growth. Remember... it's all about controling the growth and enviornment of the tree, and the most critical area of control is the soil composition - because nothing will kill a tree more surely than bad soil. Some people think it's watering technique - but no... with the right soil you could water until the cows come home and no more water will be retained than is needed no matter what.
Whats unique about Bonsai to you? The combonation of science, art and soul - all married in one thing. My love affair with it is deep and persistant - because it feeds every aspect of my nature.
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Victrinia Ridgeway
- Senior Member
- Posts: 264
- Joined: Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:46 am
- Location: Bremerton, WA
A bonsai literally means 'tree in a pot', however, this is hardly the definition used anymore. In the 'good old days' (around 400+ years ago) in japan, bonsais were stunted trees collected from high mountain regions, and planted in pots, where their caretakers tried to maintain the original design of the tree. At the same time in china, wealthy nobles often would have people construct miniatures of the land that they ruled, and in doing so stunted plants were often employed. These two cultural pathways soon melted together, resulting in what we now consider 'true bonsais'. Usually a 'bonsai' is a tree styled in one of the traditional chinese or japanese styles; formal upright, informal upright, broom, windswept, cascading, semi-cascading, ect. However, as the art has moved out of japan, new styles are beginning to emerge, such as the banyan style.
Now, it is correct to say that a tree or woody plant grown in a style that reflects the growth characteristics of larger woody plants is a bonsai. Some traditionalists might disagree with this view (we had a rather nasty member some time back who argued this), but just as all art changes, so does that of bonsai.
Now, it is correct to say that a tree or woody plant grown in a style that reflects the growth characteristics of larger woody plants is a bonsai. Some traditionalists might disagree with this view (we had a rather nasty member some time back who argued this), but just as all art changes, so does that of bonsai.
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Victrinia Ridgeway
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bonsaiboy... May I respectfully correct that the Chinese started down the path hundreds of years before the Japanese... and they interperted what they found going on there in their own way when examples were brought back from China. To make it sound like it was a simultaneous pursuit is not in truth the case. 
In fact, if you look at images of Japanese bonsai at the turn of the 20th century it has more of a penjing look than the stylized modern iterations which developed post WWII.
V
In fact, if you look at images of Japanese bonsai at the turn of the 20th century it has more of a penjing look than the stylized modern iterations which developed post WWII.
V
I guess I'm one of the blue-eyed beginners Victrina mentioned 
To me a bonsai would be:
- a tree or shrub planted in a container (or in the ground being prepared for it - but then you could argue it's not finished)
- which has also been intentionally shaped by either wiring or strategical pruning...
Only problem I find with this definition, suddenly topiaries are included too... ooops.
Maybe that's where the difference between art and craft lies, bonsai vs landscaping....
Adding that it should look like a miniature of a much larger (and probably older) specimen, or represent one of the traditional styles, would exclude the topiaries, but also a bunch of stylistic/fun trees, into whose creation went just as much thought and effort...
Which, to me appears wrong. - Art should evolve. A true artist should know the basics though (as in: the traditional styles), before going off and creating something new or abstract...
Comparing bonsai to art, I am at the stick-figure stage, so ways to go still, and my plants so far are just trees in pots... When they've lived for a good 3 years I may reevaluate....
To me a bonsai would be:
- a tree or shrub planted in a container (or in the ground being prepared for it - but then you could argue it's not finished)
- which has also been intentionally shaped by either wiring or strategical pruning...
Only problem I find with this definition, suddenly topiaries are included too... ooops.
Maybe that's where the difference between art and craft lies, bonsai vs landscaping....
Adding that it should look like a miniature of a much larger (and probably older) specimen, or represent one of the traditional styles, would exclude the topiaries, but also a bunch of stylistic/fun trees, into whose creation went just as much thought and effort...
Which, to me appears wrong. - Art should evolve. A true artist should know the basics though (as in: the traditional styles), before going off and creating something new or abstract...
Comparing bonsai to art, I am at the stick-figure stage, so ways to go still, and my plants so far are just trees in pots... When they've lived for a good 3 years I may reevaluate....
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Victrinia Ridgeway
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- Joined: Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:46 am
- Location: Bremerton, WA
Blue-eyed beginners are a treasure...
As with all things which are "beautiful" it's entirely in the eyes of the beholder. I've seen some helmets of such perfect green foliage that they may well fall into the catagory of topiary... but to the person who did it, they see bonsai. One shouldn't worry so much about when a bonsai is a bonsai as one does the pleasure they have in it. Only when you enter into the sometimes shark infested waters of competition do you have to worry about observing forms and standards. Even then the forms and standards are determined by the folks handing out the awards... and not all competitions are created equal. But would we want them to be?
Trying to put it into a neat little package of understanding is somewhat futile... there is no universal definition that properly accepts and excludes every style or aesthetic.
A bonsai is a bonsai when it meets the expectations of the practitioner and/or the peers with whom they wish to have acceptance from.
If you love stylized trees... then seeing a naturalistic bonsai is going to be a great turn off for you, and vice versa. What you love in your trees today may well appall you in future years as you develop your own sense and style in the art.
I still have the first tree I ever styled... mostly to remind me how much I have changed. My teacher thinks it's rediculous to keep a tree which has no long term potential for greatness... I keep it purely for sentimental reasons. Not to mention, in my stubborness, I am sure I will make something out of it... some day.
Kindest regards,
Victrinia
As with all things which are "beautiful" it's entirely in the eyes of the beholder. I've seen some helmets of such perfect green foliage that they may well fall into the catagory of topiary... but to the person who did it, they see bonsai. One shouldn't worry so much about when a bonsai is a bonsai as one does the pleasure they have in it. Only when you enter into the sometimes shark infested waters of competition do you have to worry about observing forms and standards. Even then the forms and standards are determined by the folks handing out the awards... and not all competitions are created equal. But would we want them to be?
Trying to put it into a neat little package of understanding is somewhat futile... there is no universal definition that properly accepts and excludes every style or aesthetic.
A bonsai is a bonsai when it meets the expectations of the practitioner and/or the peers with whom they wish to have acceptance from.
If you love stylized trees... then seeing a naturalistic bonsai is going to be a great turn off for you, and vice versa. What you love in your trees today may well appall you in future years as you develop your own sense and style in the art.
I still have the first tree I ever styled... mostly to remind me how much I have changed. My teacher thinks it's rediculous to keep a tree which has no long term potential for greatness... I keep it purely for sentimental reasons. Not to mention, in my stubborness, I am sure I will make something out of it... some day.
Kindest regards,
Victrinia
Last edited by Victrinia Ridgeway on Wed Jan 19, 2011 12:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
LOL, if mine survives, I know I'll keep it forever too :pVictrinia Ridgeway wrote:I still have the first tree I ever styled... mostly to remind me much I have changed. My teacher thinks it's rediculous to keep a tree which has no long term potential for greatness... I keep it purely for sentimental reasons. Not to mention, in my stubborness, I am sure I will make something out of it... some day.
This is probably one of the most important things to have come out of this discussion. I think it applies to many of the things that we explore in life. For the vast majority of us, bonsai (or skiing, dancing, drawing, running, playing music) is purely for our own enjoyment. I would like to add to your statement not to worry by saying that the reason you should not worry is because you understand you own level of development and accept you limitations, while still acknowledging that you will develop. I guess what I'm saying is that you shouldn't ignore the rules of bonsai (or any pleasurable activity) or critique of others, but rather accept your current knowledge (or lack thereof) and strive to build upon what you know.Victrinia Ridgeway wrote:Blue-eyed beginners are a treasure...
One shouldn't worry so much about when a bonsai is a bonsai as one does the pleasure they have in it. Only when you enter into the sometimes shark infested waters of competition do you have to worry about observing forms and standards.
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Victrinia Ridgeway
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One should be aware of the standards acknowledged in bonasi... but I think calling them rules is a limitation to the artistic side of the pursuit. Bonsai isn't paint by numbers... but as with breeds of dog there are standards which are noted as being excellent, but unlike breeds - those standards vary by aesthetic style and can be very different.
I've seen trees which take my breath away and break just about every "rule" in the book... and trees which comply with every standard bore me to tears. The truth is often in the middle, and subject to the abilities of the practitioner as well as the potential of the material.
Bonsai is often a visceral experiance between the subject and the viewer which can be assisted by the standards, but not brought on by them.
V
I've seen trees which take my breath away and break just about every "rule" in the book... and trees which comply with every standard bore me to tears. The truth is often in the middle, and subject to the abilities of the practitioner as well as the potential of the material.
Bonsai is often a visceral experiance between the subject and the viewer which can be assisted by the standards, but not brought on by them.
V
There is a feedback I get from bonsai. The more perfectly I supply my trees with what they need for growth and styling, the more perfectly they feed me with serenity.
When I come to an impasse, I go back to the books. a while ago Solomon said; "There's nothing new under the sun".
When it comes to bonsai just about every temperate climate woody plant somebody has tried in a tray. with more success than I would've ever guessed.
Are some just twigs inna pot? Yea some are. An' I'll repect that when that is the intended visual statement being tried to make.
A striking visual was made some years ago by taking a blasted and seared ceramic roof tile from Nagasaki and planing a dead pine tree on that tile and surrounding it with new seedling five needle pines in some soil.
If ever there was an ephemeral 'bonsai' this well could've been it, because it would have to be rebuilt just about every year.
I believe it to be art, and bonsai all the same. It sure poked me in the eye.
When I come to an impasse, I go back to the books. a while ago Solomon said; "There's nothing new under the sun".
When it comes to bonsai just about every temperate climate woody plant somebody has tried in a tray. with more success than I would've ever guessed.
Are some just twigs inna pot? Yea some are. An' I'll repect that when that is the intended visual statement being tried to make.
A striking visual was made some years ago by taking a blasted and seared ceramic roof tile from Nagasaki and planing a dead pine tree on that tile and surrounding it with new seedling five needle pines in some soil.
If ever there was an ephemeral 'bonsai' this well could've been it, because it would have to be rebuilt just about every year.
I believe it to be art, and bonsai all the same. It sure poked me in the eye.