cedar identification

[drzaiusx11]

I've been raising this cedar (started from a 1" sapling) for the past 3 years... but I'm not even sure what species it is. I found it in the woods of Linneus Maine...

Here's a pic:

[img]https://I'm a Spammer and just wasted my time - Delete this thread.978.org/~jeff/bonsai/cedar.jpg[/img]

anyone recognise this as anything specific?

[Zombiefreak]

Not really cedar familiar but see if any of this info grabs you. https://www.umaine.edu/umext/mainetreeclub/FactSheets/WhiteCedar.htm
It talks about white cedar which from your picture some of the more detailed things I couldn't account for.

[drzaiusx11]

thanks zombie, that sounds like it could match my plant. I've also heard that a lot of cedars (or things that are called cedars) are not really cedars at all, but are instead in some other family of evergreen. I was curious if my tree was something else altogether.

also, I was hoping to find out what species it was to perhaps make it a bit healthier... Its been an indoor plant its entire life, and has been doing pretty good as such, but every few weeks I'll have some growth die off (but usually followed by new growth). I was wondering if this death/regrowth of folliage (can you use that term with evergreens?) was normal for a cedar?

[Zombiefreak]

I would look up general cedar care to get you started then once you have a positive identification I would go from there. https://www.bonsai4me.com/SpeciesGuide/Cedrus.html has some cedar basics. This sight is wonderful for its species guide even though usually very general its sometimes a good starting point. Another thing you could do to make sure your foilage is healthy is to find another tree in nature and compare foilage colorations. Just make sure your comparison tree is healthy as well.

[femlow]

Cedar are known to drop foliage all the time (just check out the ground under a cedar in the forest. They are a lot like pine trees), so if its growing back and getting new foliage then it should be okay. But if there is any way you can do so, it would be a good idea to make your indoor tree an outdoor tree. Cedar are definately an outdoor species. They need a period of cold dormancy in the winter, even if they don't loose their leaves like other trees. It still gives them a break when they will stop growing and store food and water for a big burst of new growth in the spring. You should do it gradually since it has been inside for so long, but it would probably make your tree a lot happier.

fem

[the collecter]

I have cedars but they don't look like that or maybe its just the pic.

[drzaiusx11]

UPDATE: I've verified the species of my bonsai. It is indeed a "northern white-cedar" (pictured below)

[img]https://z.about.com/d/forestry/1/0/v/nwcedar.jpg[/img]

here's some interesting info I dug up that other n. white cedar owners might want to know:

https://forestry.about.com/library/silvics/blsilthuocc.htm
https://www.fw.vt.edu/dendro/dendrology/syllabus/factsheet.cfm?ID=118

Also, I've aquired another Cedar (made from a cliping I took on a bike trail in North Andover, MA). Its an Eastern Red Cedar. This is one of those "cedars that aren't really cedars." This red cedar is actually in the juniper family.

see: https://forestry.about.com/library/tree/blerced.htm

(Eastern Red Cedar pictured below)
[img]https://www.duke.edu/~cwcook/trees/juvi3206.jpg[/img]

[ynot]

But if there is any way you can do so, it would be a good idea to make your indoor tree an outdoor tree. Cedar are definately an outdoor species. They need a period of cold dormancy in the winter, even if they don't loose their leaves like other trees. It still gives them a break when they will stop growing and store food and water for a big burst of new growth in the spring. You should do it gradually since it has been inside for so long, but it would probably make your tree a lot happier.fem

This is absolutely true!
Think of it this way, You collected it outside right? Obviously the parent seed tree lives ouside. Do use those links that were provided to become knowledgeble wrt Soil/water/lighting requirements. And research to find more

One more thing, If you want your little bonsai to increase its trunk girth and look more like a fat tree, It needs to be in a bigger pot.
[Actually the ground is the ideal place to let it grow for a few years to thicken up.]

In that tiny little pot it will never achieve the growth required to fatten up.
Here are a few links on that as well as a general beginers bonsai link:
https://www.evergreengardenworks.com/bonsaip.htm https://www.evergreengardenworks.com/bonsaibe.htm https://www.evergreengardenworks.com/dormancy.htm
https://www.evergreengardenworks.com/dormever.htm https://www.evergreengardenworks.com/growprin.htm https://www.evergreengardenworks.com/soils.htm https://www.evergreengardenworks.com/overpot.htm
That should most likely get you by for a while....also anybody else who runs across this list of links.
ynot[url=https://imageshack.us][img]https://img241.imageshack.us/img241/1939/u4jchinaec9.gif[/img][/url]

[drzaiusx11]

Thanks for the tip ynot, I didn't even think of putting it in a bigger pot to increase the trunk (though it seems obvious now.)

Putting it in the ground isn't really an option (I live in a densely packed neighborhood and my "yard"--if you can call it that--is like 5'x5' and inhabited by red ants...)

One of the reasons I chose a small pot though was to prevent unmanageable root growth. The (at least younger) white cedars I've worked with all have one main root which has dozens of tiny thin roots that shoot off (looks kind of centipede-like). I've noticed, through nothing more than trial and error, that if the main root gets cut or damaged, it basically kills the tree. I figured I could prevent the main root from getting too long (and therefore not have to worry about cutting it) by sticking it into a small pot... probably a naive assumption (yes, I'm relatively new to all this).

Here's a picture if my root descriptions don't make any sense:
[img]https://www.dred.state.nh.us/nhnursery/seedlings/nwhitecedar/NWC3-0(5)_small.JPG[/img]

This is all probably pretty specific to this species, so I'm not exactly sure what to do. Should I put it in a big pot, presumably letting the root get really big, and then transfer it to a bonsai pot later (probably having to cut the main root, just to fit it)? This seems like the general consensus, but I'm hesitant. I've, unfortunately, killed several white cedars by damaging the main root. Do you think when they're older and more mature they might be more resilient to root cuttings (the ones I've worked with tended to be 1 to 3 years of age)?

UPDATE: after reading https://www.evergreengardenworks.com/rootprun.htm, it seems that the "tap root" or main root isn't as important as the finer, smaller roots. So perhaps it was something else I did wrong? Or is that just the case when the trees are older?

[ynot]

Thanks for the tip ynot, I didn't even think of putting it in a bigger pot to increase the trunk (though it seems obvious now.)

Your very welcome. [I appreciate the feedback and it is awesome to see you have been reading the links, So often they simply gather dust. ]

Putting it in the ground isn't really an option (I live in a densely packed neighborhood and my "yard"--if you can call it that--is like 5'x5' and inhabited by red ants...)

I understand, I am a third floor balcony bonsai-ist myself. Except for the three or four months out of the year that my ficus and serrissas are inside.
All else stays outside, I am on the beach in N. Carolina though, Heat is more of a factor here than cold.

Here is a picture I found of a White Cedar bonsai, Not a great one but it may tide you over while I complete this post...[img]https://img241.imageshack.us/img241/1939/u4jchinaec9.gif[/img]
[img]https://img83.imageshack.us/img83/3874/whitecedarbonsaiim1.jpg[/img]

A bit about W cedars from Reiner Goebel at https://www.rgbonsai.com/thuja.htm

One of the reasons I chose a small pot though was to prevent unmanageable root growth. The (at least younger) white cedars I've worked with all have one main root which has dozens of tiny thin roots that shoot off (looks kind of centipede-like). I've noticed, through nothing more than trial and error, that if the main root gets cut or damaged, it basically kills the tree. I figured I could prevent the main root from getting too long (and therefore not have to worry about cutting it) by sticking it into a small pot... probably a naive assumption (yes, I'm relatively new to all this).

You refer to the taproot [That is the big fat one going straight down.] More on that later.

About your small pot/unmanageable root growth. We need to reverse your approach here. Any tree in any container will eventually grow enough roots that they colonize the entire pot. It is simply a matter of time right? What you have done is effctively shorten the grace period you have before you have to disturb the tree to repot it. A bigger pot would provide more room for root growth and that takes more time. All this means is that the longer your tree can go without becoming rootbound or needing repotting. the longer period of undisturbed growth it gets.

Here's a picture if my root descriptions don't make any sense:

This is all probably pretty specific to this species, so I'm not exactly sure what to do. Should I put it in a big pot, presumably letting the root get really big, and then transfer it to a bonsai pot later (probably having to cut the main root, just to fit it)? This seems like the general consensus, but I'm hesitant. I've, unfortunately, killed several white cedars by damaging the main root. Do you think when they're older and more mature they might be more resilient to root cuttings (the ones I've worked with tended to be 1 to 3 years of age)?

I do not have this species so I am working off of net/written materials for the taproot info...What I would do is start googleing like mad, use the common name, Latin name both in combo with the words bonsai, taproot, ect. anything you can think of that will hep get you there. Use both the regular search and image. The internet is an amazingly powerfull tool to have at your fingertips. I can tell you have taken a bit of inititive allready and that is good

UPDATE: after reading https://www.evergreengardenworks.com/rootprun.htm, it seems that the "tap root" or main root isn't as important as the finer, smaller roots. So perhaps it was something else I did wrong? Or is that just the case when the trees are older?

You are absolutely correct, The fine, fiberous white feeder roots are what feed and water your tree, The larger tubular ones are essentially transport. When you get a bit further along with your progress through those links you will read about proper bonsai soil and the benefits of a well draining soil that promotes the growth of a root system that consists entirely of those fiberous white hairlike roots. All of which help to provide your tree with its requirements. [Also that is how a tree survives stuffed into a little or a seemingly impossibly shallow pot. It has an extremely efficent root system.]

I am finding conflicting info wrt when to trim the taproot [None specific to your species] some say earlier than you have. some say later. I really haven't had as much time as I would like to check this out. I won't forget though.
I'll see you here.

ynot

[femlow]

When you are trimming a taproot there are a couple things to keep in mind. The first is that if you cut too much off, you will also remove too many of the fine white roots, and the tree will go into shock and will not be able to get enough water and nutrients through the ones that are left. If you start slow, and just trim the end of the taproot to begin with, it will encourage more lateral root growth, which is what you will need for small/shallow bonsai pots. You can trim more as you go, but don't chop too much off at a time. Give the tree time in between prunings to develope more lateral feeder roots before cutting it again.

The other factor to keep in mind is disease. When you cut the taproot, you are basically giving diseases a wound to get in through. You should make sure your tools are clean, and you may want to consider treating the cut tip with an anti-fungal, since this is most often the infectious culprit with taproot cutting.

fem

[drzaiusx11]

femlow, those are some really helpful tips. thanks!

PS. a bit off topic for this thread, but since you mentioned the anti-fungal treatment, could you or anyone else recommend a good online plant supply store? I'd probably be looking for just the basics: organic fertilizer, some sort of anti-fungal treatment, and maybe some new pots. (I shop almost exclusively online these days... so anything that ships to the US is cool)

[ynot]

PS. a bit off topic for this thread, but since you mentioned the anti-fungal treatment, could you or anyone else recommend a good online plant supply store? I'd probably be looking for just the basics: organic fertilizer, some sort of anti-fungal treatment, and maybe some new pots. (I shop almost exclusively online these days... so anything that ships to the US is cool)

If you don't actually mind running down to the store, Any old Balanced [NPK] organic fert, and fungal treatment from the store will do. I use plain old miracle grow as a fert

There is no such thing as 'bonsai fert'- or 'bonsai seeds'..ect btw.

Since you like shopping online, I am sure there are some ads on the links I posted you may find interesting or here for that matter. Be aware it is far far too early to need a bonsai pot for these, A [large enough for several years growth] plastic pot from anywhere [kmart-walmart-Hdepot-lowes...ect] will do just fine and be cheaper also.

[drzaiusx11]

thanks everyone. I'm going to go find some larger pots to see if I can get my cedar to grow a bit. I'll keep you posted on how everything turns out