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JerseyBonsai
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can't decide on a soil mixture :(

hi everyone,
I am a newcomer to the world of bonsai and despite doing alot of research the past couple days I'm still having trouble deciding what kind of mixture to go with... I have a juniper and a ficus(not exactly sure what kind).
I've read everything from Japanese purist who only use volcanic and porous rock, to some who have had success using sphagnum moss, and other have use different ratio's of humus/grit.
It's my understanding so far that I want a soil that will drain well and promote the growth of fine roots. Also that my juniper will prefer more grit? And for my indoor ficus, use slightly more organic material? Should I just take a trip to my closest nursery and consider cost and availability for the mixture I'll be using ?
THERE IS JUST SO MUCH OUT THERE! :shock: lol. Vermiculite!perlite! akadama,sphagnum moss, sand...PLEASE HELP

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Gnome
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JerseyBonsai,
It's my understanding so far that I want a soil that will drain well and promote the growth of fine roots. Also that my juniper will prefer more grit? And for my indoor ficus, use slightly more organic material?
That just about covers it. I have a juniper that is in a nearly 100% inorganic mix that consists of approx 50/50 lava and Haydite (fired shale) with just a touch of bark. It does fine in this mixture. Many prefer to pot Ficus with more organics, which for me is aged bark. A ratio of perhaps as much as half bark for a Ficus could work although I prefer to go a little leaner even for tropicals.
Should I just take a trip to my closest nursery and consider cost and availability for the mixture I'll be using ?
I rarely see any ready-mixed bonsai soil locally but if you mean what ingredients are available that would definitely be a place to start.

Keep in mind that particle size is important. Lava is great but finding it in an appropriate size might be a problem. For bark look for something that is labeled 'composted bark' or perhaps 'soil conditioner' the particle size should be more appropriate and it will already have been aged somewhat.

If you intend to mix your own, a few screens are almost a necessity, I have several in various sizes. The most useful are 1/4" and 1/8". Anything that stays on top of the 1/4" is rather large. What falls thorough the 1/4" but stays on top of a 1/8" screen is what I use for most things. What falls through that is pretty small but still useful for cuttings or seedlings if you screen it one more time. My smallest screen is like a coarse screen door, about 1/16". Anything that passes through that is very fine and is generally discarded.

Have you seen our sticky thread about soil?
https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3422
Make sure to follow the links, (I know some are dead) especially the one to bonsai4me where Harry discusses using kitty litter and various oil absorbent materials. Be wary of kitty litter, I have yet to find a brand that is suitable. I think I will give the D.E. a try this year though.

Let us know what you discover.

Norm

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JerseyBonsai
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Thanks Norm,

Also, yes I meant ingredients I could find at my nursery, because I also haven't any luck finding bonsai mixes made already. Buying online is great but I feel it could become expensive.
Have you tried experimenting with sphagnum moss at all? I'm considering this as my primary ingredient for my ficus.

Rosaelyn
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I have been trying out a number of things for my trees, and I have come to the conclusion that what works best for me is NAPA brand floor dry and conditioned pine mulch. This floor dry is the diatomaceous earth (DE) that Norm mentioned in his reply. The only thing I use long strand sphagnum moss for is to wrap the base of my two ficus, as I'm trying to create better nebari on them.

The reason I find this mix so nice is that the DE is a dark grey when wet and almost a white when dry. So letting the topmost DE dry out on my ficus before I water has proven to make them very happy. Some of my outdoor trees are in this same mix, to positive result so far (hard to tell right now while everything is frozen hehe) and I plan to repot more of my trees into this mix come spring.

But yes, JerseyBonsai, a temperate tree like a juniper I would mix heavy on the DE and lighter on the pine bark - and for a ficus, the other way around. About 60/40 either way, would be my preference.

The thing with bonsai soil is that it depends a lot upon the enthusiast (watering habits and time availability) and what they have available. So there is no honest way for me to say "This works 100%" because it may work for my watering habits and be readily available to me, but not necessarily the same for you.

My original plan was Turface, but I have had great difficulty locating it in my area. I tried the DE as an alternative and I have become very fond of it. If I had a ready supply of lava rock in a small enough form, I would use that as well, but I have yet to find that available to me either.

The most important thing is a mixture that will retain enough water to give you a comfortable watering schedule, without waterlogging your tree's roots - meaning it drains freely and allows for air in between the soil particles and will resist compacting (as a standard potting soil or something with a lot of peat or other organic component will).

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Gnome
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JerseyBonsai,

Rosaelyn makes some very good points.
Rosaelyn wrote:The thing with bonsai soil is that it depends a lot upon the enthusiast (watering habits and time availability) and what they have available. So there is no honest way for me to say "This works 100%" because it may work for my watering habits and be readily available to me, but not necessarily the same for you.

The most important thing is a mixture that will retain enough water to give you a comfortable watering schedule, without waterlogging your tree's roots - meaning it drains freely and allows for air in between the soil particles and will resist compacting (as a standard potting soil or something with a lot of peat or other organic component will).
Other factors that might influence your mix would be species, which you are aware of and your location, which is kind of obvious. A member here from Arizona does use chopped Sphagnum moss as a component of his mix but in my area, and likely yours, I don't think it is necessary.

If you are serious about mixing your own soil either buy or build a set of screens as I described above, you will find that it is difficult to size your components without them. Bonsai retailers carry commercially built screens with one frame and interchangeable inserts. I like my home made ones as I can stack them, finest on the bottom-coarsest on top. Any box store or hardware store should have hardware cloth in different sizes.

If you wish to avoid all of this you can also buy ready made mixes on-line. Shipping costs for a 50 Lb. bag of rocks (Turface) can cost as much, or more, than the material itself, and after discarding the fines it gets even more expensive. On the other hand a few gallons of soil mix is not that big a deal and this avoids all of the problems associated with composing your own.

Norm

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Big Vine
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JerseyBonsai,

I only got into bonsai less than a year ago, and up until a few months ago I found myself in your exact same position---wondering what the heck to do about getting a reliable 'soil mix'!

Ultimately, I found that building my own screens to screen the aggregate (non-organic) component---Florida limestone---(which is locally-available and I obtain myself for very little cost) was the best solution. I bought the organic component---coconut husk---at a local hydroponics store (had them order it in for me).

This is all I use for my tropical plants which are being grown indoors under supplemental artificial lighting.
I have a lot more I could share about this if you'd like to know what components and materials I used and where I went about finding them. Just let me know.
BV

Victrinia Ridgeway
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For two trees... trying to get your own good consistent soil mix components is a bit expensive and time consuming.

I would just buy your components here... https://www.shop.northstarbonsai.com/category.sc;jsessionid=02E2AB6B4193AD6D98368B0335A244F1.qscstrfrnt02?categoryId=8 and then mix it to whatever ratio is most appropriate for each tree. The stuff is coming presifted, and I believe washed.... so you couldn't get any easier or more reasonable than this, since you only need enough to take care of two trees. For me, it would be insane, I have a lot of trees. lol So I have no choice but to put it together myself.

In fact since most of it is coming in 5 quart or 1 gallon quanities... you'll have a lot left over for the future.

Shipping might be a little expensive to me, but seeing as you are in Jersey... it should be cheap enough.

The man who runs this bonsai nursery, Tom Brown, is a dear friend of mine... I trust him implicitly. You won't be disappointed.

Kindest regards,

Victrinia

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Big Vine
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Victrinia...that's a great link.
In fact, I've bookmarked it for future reference (you know, in case the limestone piles decide to disappear around my area, haha)

In my experience (admittedly rather limited), it has been almost impossible to come by ready-to-purchase lava products with those ideal particle sizes available on that site. If I were only planning on owning just a few trees, that'd be perfect.

Of course, I know I won't be able to limit myself that much either! :wink:
BV

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JerseyBonsai
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:D wow thanks to everyone for your great responses!
I definitely agree now that I think about it that I don't necessarily have to make my own soil for only two trees. I have quite some time on my hands and perhaps jump the gun by overlooking a simpler solution.
Thanks to Big vine for your input on your tropical plants and also big thanks to Victrinia for the great link, I think I'll be using this site in the near future :o
I think I'll still pick up some screens soon too, thanks for the advice norm.
Oh and Rosaelyn, I might consider D.E. as well, the changing of color when it gets dry makes for a great property for beginners like me!

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JerseyBonsai
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also everyone I'm going to try and post a pic of my ficus, up on the Bonsai ID forum.
I'm not quite sure what kind of ficus it is, and I'm only 80% sure that it actually is a Ficus.
I would really appreciate your help
Thanks Again
-Drew

Victrinia Ridgeway
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Tom is a highly respected member of several of the more advanced boards on the internet and goes by the handle "tachigi"... if you have any questions you could contact him on his bonsai website bonsai vault. But he's also on bonsainut, IBC, or any number of places.

He'll take good care of you and he's a very kind and helpful teacher to boot.

I've got about 100+ trees in various stages of development... so I mix soils by the many gallons. I don't have the luxury of being as fussy as I was when I had only 15 or 20. And if one isn't careful, and gets too excited, you can damage and kill trees... when I was in my first year I decided to be clever and add in amendments to my home mixed soil... don't be clever...lol it rarely works out well. Several marvelous trees died costing hundreds of dollards. There's a reason certain things do well consistently... they have been time tested. It isn't so much about being a traditionalist as it is about erring on the side of health. You get people who plant trees in long sphagnum moss etc... and while the tree may do fine... you are not going to get the kind of rootage that you want on trees which have been bonsai for a very long time. I repotted an illex with my hubby this weekend, that has rootage which would make any bonsai artist swoon... it is such a beautiful display of dense baby fine threads in a pad. But it is years of good bonsai horticulture and training which bring that about.

Victrinia

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JerseyBonsai
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thanks victrinia

I def agree..my very bonsai died because I did everything at once and rushed it by trying to make an instant masterpiece. I'm also learning patience along with this great new hobby...sometimes I have to check my self though lol maybe its age idk haha :lol:

Victrinia Ridgeway
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I often comment that bonsai is not measured in seasons... but years. One can achieve short term goals in a season or two... but it is only the discipline of years which brings about a truly noteworthy bonsai. Some of my best trees don't look a thing like they did when I got them... but were bonsai for many years before they came into my hands. I took that foundational work and made something uniquely mine of it... one does not have to start with an immature tree to create something valid... it is creating something which you find beautiful which is the valid thing. So don't limit yourself to the 100 year plan, as my teacher is often fond of saying, which is an exaggeration designed to make a point... but a point none the less.

Victrinia

Marsman
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I'm all giggled up! :D

I just found a local business that sells Turface. Going to go buy some tomorrow. I tried using kitty litter in a pot where I'm rooting some ficus cuttings, but after sifting with the 1/8th screen, I only was able to use maybe a 3rd of the bag. It was too fine.

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Gnome
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Marsman,

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but I think that you will find a similar situation with the Turface. First make sure to specify the MVP grade as it is coarser than the other grade and will yield more useful material. You'll probably do better than 1/3, but you will probably find that there will be fairly high percentage that is too small.

I keep what passes through my 1/8" screen and sieve it again at about 1/16" I find this useful for cuttings and seedlings. What goes through that screen is generally discarded.

Norm

Marsman
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Norm, I have the 3-screen sieve as well.

[img]https://i956.photobucket.com/albums/ae50/marsman61/Bonsai/Various%20Hosting%20Pics/bt67.jpg[/img]

This [url=https://www.hartseed.com]place I'm going to[/url] has the MVP, Pro League & Field & Fairway. The MVP looked a bit bigger than the Pro. I'll look at each and see what's best for my needs.

MVP
[img]https://i956.photobucket.com/albums/ae50/marsman61/Bonsai/Various%20Hosting%20Pics/MVP.jpg[/img]

Pro League
[img]https://i956.photobucket.com/albums/ae50/marsman61/Bonsai/Various%20Hosting%20Pics/Pro.jpg[/img]

ADDED: And, what passes through my smallest sieve, I can use as cat litter for Clawdette.
[url=https://s956.photobucket.com/albums/ae50/marsman61/Pets/?action=view&current=ace7a245.jpg][img]https://i956.photobucket.com/albums/ae50/marsman61/Pets/th_ace7a245.jpg[/img][/url]

Marsman
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Stopped by and picked up a bag of Turface MVP, now called PrimeraOne. 50 Lb. bag for $11.00.

[url=https://s956.photobucket.com/albums/ae50/marsman61/Bonsai/Various%20Hosting%20Pics/?action=view&current=91f300e3.jpg][img]https://i956.photobucket.com/albums/ae50/marsman61/Bonsai/Various%20Hosting%20Pics/th_91f300e3.jpg[/img][/url]

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Gnome
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Marsman,
Turface MVP, now called PrimeraOne.
Thanks for the information, now to see if I can remember it. :oops:

Norm



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