New-ish Chinese Elm. Please help me

[J10126]

Hello, I'm new to the forums and this will be my first post.

I have a Chinese Elm and would like to ask some direct questions to be answered by much more experienced cultivators.

Some background information:
The tree is very young, and was bought at a market stall of a Bonsai nursery marked as "A Bonsai starter". It shows signs of new growth and I have trimmed back a few new leaves. It's lost a few from browning and falling off, and yellowing and falling off.
It's currently summer in Australia.

Questions:

Placement: The tree is currently located on a porch/veranda where it receives the morning sunrise and it is out of direct sunlight.
Should I move it out into a more sunny area or keep it where it is?
I have thought about maybe building some sort of bench with shade cloth to provide dappled light during most of the day.

Pruning: Now, I still don't totally understand this one.
I know pruning is essential to Bonsai shaping and to keep it dwarfed, but just exactly how do I go about it?
Am I to just cut back the new growth as it appears, or wait a little until the leaves darken? Every website seems to tell em something different!
I want it to thicken up, however remain in the boundaries of the pot. I want it to eventually be spread out to one side, image it how it is, but extremely bushy with a nice trunk.

Feeding: I began to feed it with a 100% organic liquid fertiliser in spring/summer to help new growth. I watered it down because it's a strong concentrate and I didn't want to hurt the young tree.

Here are some pictures:
[img]https://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb287/jazz10126/IMG_2299.jpg[/img]

[img]https://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb287/jazz10126/IMG_2298.jpg[/img]

[img]https://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb287/jazz10126/IMG_2300.jpg[/img]

If I had a DSLR, you could also tell that some of the leaves have holes in them Stupid caterpillars. I inspected it and glady crushed them.

thanks,
-J

[djlen]

Hi J and welcome to the forum,

First a question or two about the pot and also the soil. Does the pot have holes in the bottom for drainage? When you water, does the pot drain freely? It looks like it probably does from the picture but this is so important that I wanted to ask. Hopefully you will answer yes to both.
Can you tell us a bit about the type of soil you are using?
From what you say regarding the location I would suggest putting it in a spot where it can receive more hours of light but a mixture of sun and filtered light during the day. It just sounds a bit too light deprived with only morning sun to me and I would give a few hours of direct sun daily.

As to pruning. An Elm, when happy is a very vigorous tree and requires regular pinching/trimming in order to keep it shapely and in bounds from a tree/pot perspective. If you're not seeing constant new growth it's not growing at its best, IMO. It will slow a bit as summer becomes hotter and require more observation for dryness and watering and less pruning. But I see fairly steady growth in mine throughout the growing season.
The growth on my Elms is so vigorous that I rarely have to wire them for shaping. Instead I pinch them at a node that goes in the direction I want the branch to go. This pinching also aids in the ramification (branch development) and fullness of the tree over time.
Regarding fertilization. I am not a big fan of 'organic' fertilizer. I use Miracle Gro fertilizer at 1/2 strength or 1/4 strength with each watering and this regimen works well for me. As the season begins to wane and the tree gets ready for dormancy I stop feeding in order that it not have as much tender growth when the cold weather is expected.
You will hear other opinions on this depending on other folk's experiences. We all go with what works for us and our trees.
Please reply with some feedback/questions and we will be happy to help if we can.

[Gnome]

J,

Hello and welcome to The Helpful Gardener. I think you have written something that bears emphasizing.

The tree is very young, and was bought at a market stall of a Bonsai nursery marked as "A Bonsai starter".

Pruning: Now, I still don't totally understand this one.
I know pruning is essential to Bonsai shaping and to keep it dwarfed, but just exactly how do I go about it?
Am I to just cut back the new growth as it appears, or wait a little until the leaves darken? Every website seems to tell em something different!
I want it to thicken up, however remain in the boundaries of the pot. I want it to eventually be spread out to one side, image it how it is, but extremely bushy with a nice trunk.

The reason you are reading conflicting information is because every situation is different, you don't handle a very young tree, such as yours, the same way you would handle a more mature specimen. In order for the trunk to develop a period of unrestricted growth is required, it would be counterproductive to do much pruning during the early years of this tree. Being in a bonsai pot now will also slow you down greatly. The best growth will be obtained in the ground, or lacking that, a grow box. I would not move it now since it is your summer and at the moment it does not appear to be crowded. Over the course of this summer consider where you want to go with this tree and make a choice next spring.

Often advice is offered that goes something like, allow new shoots to elongate to several inches and then cut back to two leaves, this should be considered a technique to maintain a tree that has reached a more advanced stage of development, it is not appropriate for your tree right now. First you build your trunk, (and nebari) then the primary branches and lastly the secondary branches are begun. only then is it time to start this type of pruning.

You need to define how large a bonsai you wish. Overall height is related to the diameter of the trunk, usually the ratio cited is 1:6. A one inch trunk for a six inch tall tree. A two inch trunk for a twelve inch tree, etc. Any pruning now only serves to slow the trunk building process.

Also, there are differences in how the various species are handled. A pine requires an entirely different strategy than a Chinese Elm, Ulmus parvifolia will. Chinese Elms can be grown out for years and cut back hard, a move that would likely kill a Pine.

Read [url=https://www.evergreengardenworks.com/trunks.htm]this[/url] to give you an idea of what is involved in developing trunks for bonsai.

Placement: The tree is currently located on a porch/veranda where it receives the morning sunrise and it is out of direct sunlight.
Should I move it out into a more sunny area or keep it where it is?
I have thought about maybe building some sort of bench with shade cloth to provide dappled light during most of the day.

I keep this species in a more open situation than you describe. But I don't know the specifics of your weather. If you receive very strong sunlight shade cloth might indeed be required. I don't get too many days with temperatures over 90F.

Feeding: I began to feed it with a 100% organic liquid fertiliser in spring/summer to help new growth. I watered it down because it's a strong concentrate and I didn't want to hurt the young tree.

I mix fertilizers to the recommended ratios. In other words I dilute according to the package, I do not over-dilute to half strength. Others may have a different take on this. My feeling is that with trees under development this fertilization is appropriate. There may come a time that you want to slow this down but for now your tree needs to grow. Your tree appears to be in a very free draining mix, keep in mind that this type of medium does not retain nutrients the same way a heavier mix would. The frequent watering of bonsai also serves to flush out nutrients so a regular schedule is required. Also, most of the organic products I have seen have relatively low N-P-K ratios anyway.

Norm

Hey Len, I see you snuck in ahead of me. Did it really take me over 45 minutes to compose that?

[J10126]

Wow, thank you both very much. This sounds like information from experienced growers.

I'm going to work through each question/statement as I go.

The pot does have two holes in the bottom, which are covered with mesh to prevent the soil falling through. It drains very easily (I know it doesn't look it in the pictures, but I had just watered it.) and the water can easily run out.

I'm not sure about the mix of the soil, but I got a plastic bag of it when I purchased the tree from the market. I apparently it's proper Bonsai soil.
I've read around and red flags always come up warning against potting mix, so I figured it would be right to use this very coarse soil.

What also lead me to believe that it wasn't receiving enough light where it is is that all the leaves face towards the east, as that is where the light comes from. They are trying to take it in.
(this is also evident in a Baby Jade growing on the windowsill, but it's going crazy atm and doing very well indoors.)

(answering the question about weather from Gnome)
Australia is nearly famous for such harsh weather.
Last summer we had a heat wave of 5 consecutive days reaching over 45 degrees Celsius (about 111, 112F) with the hottest topping the thermometer at 48C (116F)
In spring it would be fine getting more hours of light.
But summer... I would be surprised if it could last all day.
We also have very dry heat, with next to no humidity.

I also have read about not fertilising as is gets close to being dormant.. it's pretty much useless if it doesn't need it.
I was also given a little bonsai pocket calender, with the months on it and guidlines on what I should be doing. It seems in line with what people say and it comes in hand for letting me know when.

Okay.. on to the grow box/pot.
You have pointed out what I have feared... haha.

I (being ignorant, and new to the hobby) thought "oh, Bonsais live in small pots. That's what it should be in."
So once I had purchased it, I potted it in that. (it came in small black plastic, smaller than the pot.)

However, further reading taught me to just leave it grow, because I couldn't re-pot it again.
It seems I'm trying to apply techniques intended for old trees on one that needs to be established in the first place.

So a basic outline of what I should be doing.. let me know if it's right/wrong. (although there doesn't seem to be a right or wrong in the art.)
Place is somewhere where it can get a few more hours of sunlight. (I think I have a good spot.. The fenceline stops light until about 11/12 and then we have Jasmine vines that provide dappled light until about 3, and then the roofline shadows over.)

in order for it to get bushier, and thicker I should pretty much just let it grow, but keep an eye for unsightly branches I do not want growing.
Don't do anything in winter as it goes dormant (last thing I want is it dying) and then when late winter/early spring rolls around, re-pot it into a grow box for a year or so (maybe two?), until it's more established.
Then I can cut it and shape it how I wish.

Thank you both so very much. It really is the Helpful Gardener.
I look forward to hearing more feedback

P.S. Norm - I like how you pointed out first. It made me re-evaluate.

[J10126]

Also, while I'm thinking about it and eager to get into it... (Plus I have a little extra time on my hands at the moment)

If I was to grow it in a growth box (simply because he have poor soil in the ground, and it's easier to maintain within the box) what would you recommend doing?

Should I build one from wood that I can customise the size and all, or should I just find a container or something, like an ice cream tub that I modify a little to allow for drainage, etc.
Also, what type of soil should I be using in a growth box? Some rocky Bonsai soil, or a certain type of potting mix?

I looked it up on here:
https://www.instructables.com/id/Starting_a_Bonsai/step2/The-Box/

Is that a roughly good size, or should it be bigger/smaller

Obviously I'm asking soo many questions at the moment, but I'm thirsting for knowledge. haha.

Thanks again.

EDIT:
On second thoughts, after reading this
https://knowledgeofbonsai.org/articles/pots-slabs-pottery/grow-boxes-and-training-pots/
which linked me to this - fascinating to think about, really.
https://www.evergreengardenworks.com/earthpot.htm

Would it just be way better to mark off a section of back yard, dig up the soil, remove the grass, section it off and plant it?
Or is a grow box just more simple, because I can control the root development to create a nice and flat root bed, and in turn develop a decent Nebari?

[djlen]

I would build a grow out box for it.....nice and large for it to expand into.
If you have well drained soil/medium, a mix of organic and inorganic, there is little risk of root rot and it'll be much more manageable in a box.
Norm has posted pictures of wood boxes he has built from scrap lumber that last for years and are very functional. I've looked but can't find the threads but he will probably post them here for you when he reads this.
Basically it's a box with support slats in the bottom that supports screen mesh across the bottom which when combined with a good free draining medium will give your tree a very nice environment.
The beauty of these boxes is that they can be made to the specs. you need for a particular tree and they are cheap to make.

[Gnome]

J10126,

I'm glad to see that you are doing research.

Should I build one from wood that I can customise the size and all, or should I just find a container or something, like an ice cream tub that I modify a little to allow for drainage, etc.

You can use many different types of containers. They must have good drainage and be large enough to encourage good growth while not being so large to stay soggy for extended periods. If you are going to grow this one out keep in mind that it will be a long term process and it will probably not be disturbed for years to come. Someone, possibly Brent, wrote that if you are going to put a tree in the ground plan on leaving there for at least three years, otherwise you have gained very little.

Also, what type of soil should I be using in a growth box? Some rocky Bonsai soil, or a certain type of potting mix?

I avoid conventional potting mixes, preferring a coarse, free draining mix for everything. I have even abandoned 'potting soil' for the houseplants I keep, they seem much happier in the long run.

Here is the picture of the box Len referred to, it is much like the one shown at K.O.B.
[url=https://img508.imageshack.us/I/growboxsv9.jpg/][img]https://img508.imageshack.us/img508/8238/growboxsv9.th.jpg[/img][/url]

Here is another picture showing some of the other things I am using. Note that they are all rather shallow and while roomy, not huge in comparison to their plants.
[url=https://img411.imageshack.us/I/potsui8.jpg/][img]https://img411.imageshack.us/img411/1989/potsui8.th.jpg[/img][/url]

Norm

[a0c8c]

Don't do anything in winter as it goes dormant (last thing I want is it dying) and then when late winter/early spring rolls around, re-pot it into a grow box for a year or so (maybe two?), until it's more established.

Don't do Nothing. Cut your watering way back, but also don't let it sit dried out the whole winter, or that'll kill it.

[J10126]

Yeah, looks like a wooden grow box will be the go.
I have easy aces to wooden pallets used for forklifts etc. so it should be no trouble sourcing material.

Oh and:

Don't do Nothing. Cut your watering way back, but also don't let it sit dried out the whole winter, or that'll kill it.

Well yes, obviously. That was in reference to moving pots and trimming and all that.
You know, I'm not a total noob hahaa

Thanks a heap for the advice guys.
Looks like a nice project for when spring rolls around.

EDIT:
When I make up the growth box I'll document it all and might make a post with instructions and pictures for people to follow.
However that won't be happening soon, because this time tomorrow, I'll be on a plane to Cambodia