New Bonsai owner (Chinese Elm)
Hi I have been given a 24yr old chinese elm for christmas. My brother had it for 3 weeks before giving it to me. Apparently at first it lost a lot of leaves but is now growing very well. Is it o.k for the shoots to be left to grow as they please or should I be considering pruning?
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handpotter
- Newly Registered
- Posts: 4
- Joined: Fri Dec 25, 2009 5:14 pm
- Location: Batavia, Ohio
That's a really nice Christmas present Jak. The fact that it's sprouting new growth is an excellent sign as well. I think I'd give it some time to settle in to it's new surroundings before I'd do any pruning. There are some excellent discussions on here and elsewhere on the Web regarding pruning that particular tree. I have several and they do need light pinching to keep the shoots from getting out of hand. I's also watch giving it too much light until it settles in.
Congratulations on your new acquisition. 
Chinese Elms are a very rewarding species when it comes to bonsai.
There are a number of reasons that a Chinese Elm might lose leaves. First of all, they are a deciduous species, and are meant to lose their leaves this time of year. Second, a change in environment (lighting, temperature, etc.) can cause stress to a tree and cause it to react in such a matter. Since it has healthy new growth, I imagine it was the temporary stress, and it sounds as if it is recovering well.
Chinese Elms are a hardy, outdoor species of tree and are meant to react to seasonal changes while outdoors. These trees are more forgiving than most as far as living indoors, and yours should be fine to maintain indoors until spring. But at that point, it will make your tree much happier to live outside.
I would not suggest setting it outside at this point since it has not had a chance to adjust to a gradual decrease in daylight and temperature. (I see you are in Maine, and I'm guessing it's quite cold there now, as it is here in Michigan.)
As far as trimming your tree, it depends on a number of factors. You said it is an older, mature tree, so it may already have good ramification and shape. If that is the case, trimming to maintain the tree's current shape may be what you wish to do. On the other hand, bonsai trees are very much a living piece of art, and in that respect, you may find you have a different idea of the shape the tree should be then how it is presented now. That may consist of letting certain branches grow and thicken and perhaps removing other branches entirely.
This is all a matter of your preference. There are many "rules" to the shaping of "good" and "traditional" bonsai (since bonsai is an art, all of this is subjective of course).
If you are unsure of how you wish to shape your tree, please post a few pictures and I am sure many of us here can advise.
Chinese Elms are a very rewarding species when it comes to bonsai.There are a number of reasons that a Chinese Elm might lose leaves. First of all, they are a deciduous species, and are meant to lose their leaves this time of year. Second, a change in environment (lighting, temperature, etc.) can cause stress to a tree and cause it to react in such a matter. Since it has healthy new growth, I imagine it was the temporary stress, and it sounds as if it is recovering well.
Chinese Elms are a hardy, outdoor species of tree and are meant to react to seasonal changes while outdoors. These trees are more forgiving than most as far as living indoors, and yours should be fine to maintain indoors until spring. But at that point, it will make your tree much happier to live outside.
I would not suggest setting it outside at this point since it has not had a chance to adjust to a gradual decrease in daylight and temperature. (I see you are in Maine, and I'm guessing it's quite cold there now, as it is here in Michigan.)
As far as trimming your tree, it depends on a number of factors. You said it is an older, mature tree, so it may already have good ramification and shape. If that is the case, trimming to maintain the tree's current shape may be what you wish to do. On the other hand, bonsai trees are very much a living piece of art, and in that respect, you may find you have a different idea of the shape the tree should be then how it is presented now. That may consist of letting certain branches grow and thicken and perhaps removing other branches entirely.
This is all a matter of your preference. There are many "rules" to the shaping of "good" and "traditional" bonsai (since bonsai is an art, all of this is subjective of course).
If you are unsure of how you wish to shape your tree, please post a few pictures and I am sure many of us here can advise.
[url=https://g.imagehost.org/view/0060/P1000666][img]https://g.imagehost.org/t/0060/P1000666.jpg[/img][/url]
[url=https://g.imagehost.org/view/0015/P1000665][img]https://g.imagehost.org/t/0015/P1000665.jpg[/img][/url]
[url=https://g.imagehost.org/view/0811/P1000664][img]https://g.imagehost.org/t/0811/P1000664.jpg[/img][/url]
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Hi, Thanks for all the help no doubt I'll be torturing you loads. Here's some pics
[url=https://g.imagehost.org/view/0015/P1000665][img]https://g.imagehost.org/t/0015/P1000665.jpg[/img][/url]
[url=https://g.imagehost.org/view/0811/P1000664][img]https://g.imagehost.org/t/0811/P1000664.jpg[/img][/url]
[url=https://g.imagehost.org/view/0015/P1000663][img]https://g.imagehost.org/t/0015/P1000663.jpg[/img][/url]
Hi, Thanks for all the help no doubt I'll be torturing you loads. Here's some pics
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Gnome
- Super Green Thumb
- Posts: 5122
- Joined: Wed Jul 05, 2006 12:17 am
- Location: Western PA USDA Zone 6A
Jak,
Thanks for the pictures they are helpful. The fresh growth on your tree indicates to me that it is not entering dormancy so the leaf drop, it would seem to me, is a cultural issue.
Chinese Elms will go dormant if certain conditions are met. They would usually be allowed to grow outside to experience the shortening days that occur after the summer solstice. Cooler temperatures also play a role in preparing deciduous trees for their dormant phase. This tree came from a vendor, to your brother, and now to you so who knows how it was handled recently. What type of light and how many hours a day, in particular.
Chinese Elms also have the ability to remain evergreen when the aforementioned requirements are lacking. They are subtropical and do not have the same strict dormancy requirements as true temperate/deciduous material. Having said that, I prefer to handle them as temperate trees keeping them outside and allowing a full dormancy during winter in a sheltered location.
Your location, the season and the weak, spindly growth of the new shoots would indicate that it is not receiving sufficient light. That is probably the single biggest factor in it's poor condition. It is trying to grow but the light it is receiving is too weak. Where do you keep it? Would you consider providing supplemental lighting for the tree?
Another thing that comes to mind is the poor condition of the soil. This is not uncommon with commercially prepared bonsai. There is probably still soil from the growing field still in the pot, which is a bad thing. Trees in pots suffer from lack of drainage. Ironically the same soil that does not drain well also does not absorb water easily. It is possible that because of the heavy soil the roots at the core have not been receiving sufficient moisture. Look [url=https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1479]here[/url] for tips on watering bonsai. Consider using the chopstick method to determine when to water.
If you, and more importantly your brother, have only been watering lightly then a good soaking is in order. Water from the top repeatedly, waiting a few minutes before repeating, until the soil is saturated. Then insert the chopstick or skewer. On the other hand if the soil is soggy it has been watered too frequently. The dense, compacted nature of this soil can be deceiving, it may appear damp at the surface and be dry below. Or the opposite could be true depending upon how it has been watered recently. If it has been properly saturated recently then a dry surface will not necessarily mean it needs watered that day, it may still be damp below. A good, free draining bonsai mix will help to negate these issues.
Which leads me to when to re-pot. The two best times to re-pot a Chinese Elm are in the spring, just as it is emerging from dormancy. This is obviously not an option for you this year. The other choice is to re-pot in mid winter after allowing a brief dormancy in the fall and early winter. This would mean that your tree will have to make it through an entire year in the less than ideal soil it is in now. It is possible to manage it in the current soil but it will take diligence on your part.
I've re-potted them 'out of season' before with good results but I hesitate to recommend that you do the same. This is a choice you will have to make yourself, but not just yet. Do you have any experience re-potting trees or other types of plants?
You might also want to read [url=https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3422]this[/url] after you have digested the other material.
Good luck and we'll be glad to help you along the way if we can.
Norm
Thanks for the pictures they are helpful. The fresh growth on your tree indicates to me that it is not entering dormancy so the leaf drop, it would seem to me, is a cultural issue.
Chinese Elms will go dormant if certain conditions are met. They would usually be allowed to grow outside to experience the shortening days that occur after the summer solstice. Cooler temperatures also play a role in preparing deciduous trees for their dormant phase. This tree came from a vendor, to your brother, and now to you so who knows how it was handled recently. What type of light and how many hours a day, in particular.
Chinese Elms also have the ability to remain evergreen when the aforementioned requirements are lacking. They are subtropical and do not have the same strict dormancy requirements as true temperate/deciduous material. Having said that, I prefer to handle them as temperate trees keeping them outside and allowing a full dormancy during winter in a sheltered location.
Your location, the season and the weak, spindly growth of the new shoots would indicate that it is not receiving sufficient light. That is probably the single biggest factor in it's poor condition. It is trying to grow but the light it is receiving is too weak. Where do you keep it? Would you consider providing supplemental lighting for the tree?
Another thing that comes to mind is the poor condition of the soil. This is not uncommon with commercially prepared bonsai. There is probably still soil from the growing field still in the pot, which is a bad thing. Trees in pots suffer from lack of drainage. Ironically the same soil that does not drain well also does not absorb water easily. It is possible that because of the heavy soil the roots at the core have not been receiving sufficient moisture. Look [url=https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1479]here[/url] for tips on watering bonsai. Consider using the chopstick method to determine when to water.
If you, and more importantly your brother, have only been watering lightly then a good soaking is in order. Water from the top repeatedly, waiting a few minutes before repeating, until the soil is saturated. Then insert the chopstick or skewer. On the other hand if the soil is soggy it has been watered too frequently. The dense, compacted nature of this soil can be deceiving, it may appear damp at the surface and be dry below. Or the opposite could be true depending upon how it has been watered recently. If it has been properly saturated recently then a dry surface will not necessarily mean it needs watered that day, it may still be damp below. A good, free draining bonsai mix will help to negate these issues.
Which leads me to when to re-pot. The two best times to re-pot a Chinese Elm are in the spring, just as it is emerging from dormancy. This is obviously not an option for you this year. The other choice is to re-pot in mid winter after allowing a brief dormancy in the fall and early winter. This would mean that your tree will have to make it through an entire year in the less than ideal soil it is in now. It is possible to manage it in the current soil but it will take diligence on your part.
I've re-potted them 'out of season' before with good results but I hesitate to recommend that you do the same. This is a choice you will have to make yourself, but not just yet. Do you have any experience re-potting trees or other types of plants?
You might also want to read [url=https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3422]this[/url] after you have digested the other material.
Good luck and we'll be glad to help you along the way if we can.
Norm
Hello again
I have only watered the tree once last Sunday I sprayed from above until that ran through and then waited 30mins and repeated. I have just checked the soil and it is definately moist right through.
The tree is at my patio doors and gets the natural daylight from 7am-7pm (approx) each day, although I do live in muggy Northern Ireland so the light is by no means strong so I'm sure it could be throwing out these new shoots to search for better light.
The shoots are not necessarily growing towards the patio doors whiich is where more light would be they are coming out both sides.
As unfortunately this is the brightest room in my house I would deffinately need to get artificial light if this is what you would recommend???
I do not know when the tree was re potted last but if I go by the advice given from the seller every 2-3yrs after it was ten years old so if he practiced what he preached it sould be up to date.
Poor wee tree.
All help much appreciated.
I have only watered the tree once last Sunday I sprayed from above until that ran through and then waited 30mins and repeated. I have just checked the soil and it is definately moist right through.
The tree is at my patio doors and gets the natural daylight from 7am-7pm (approx) each day, although I do live in muggy Northern Ireland so the light is by no means strong so I'm sure it could be throwing out these new shoots to search for better light.
The shoots are not necessarily growing towards the patio doors whiich is where more light would be they are coming out both sides.
As unfortunately this is the brightest room in my house I would deffinately need to get artificial light if this is what you would recommend???
I do not know when the tree was re potted last but if I go by the advice given from the seller every 2-3yrs after it was ten years old so if he practiced what he preached it sould be up to date.
Poor wee tree.
All help much appreciated.
Welcome Jak
You have the makings of a beautiful little Elm there. All the above advise is accurate and non-conflicting.
From the looks of your tree and it's soil I would think that it will need a re-pot in the spring to a lighter soil which will drain well so that over watering will become less of an issue. I think you will see very much improved growth at that time when it will be getting natural light and have happier roots. There is much advice available for you when you do repot.
For now I would suggest that you invest in at least one and possibly two CF (compact fluorescent) lighting fixtures, into which you can screw two coiled CF bulbs and hang over and close to the tree. This will supply plenty enough light to maintain those needs while it over-winters in your house. The bulbs can be of any color temp. and should be equivalent to 100watt incandescent bulbs for best results.
Here is a link to show you what I'm referring to:
https://www.homedepot.com/Lighting-Fans-Worklights/h_d1/N-5yc1vZ1xgfZaqn9/R-100664506/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053
The fixture was made for incandescent bulbs but those screw-in fluorescents work very nicely and throw much more intense light which your tree will appreciate. The fixture shown is 8.5" and also comes in an 11" size which is the size I use for better coverage.
I see you have a drip tray. Keep it full of water and if you can, mist the leaves of the tree daily to supply some humidity lacking inside the average home in winter.
You have the makings of a beautiful little Elm there. All the above advise is accurate and non-conflicting.
From the looks of your tree and it's soil I would think that it will need a re-pot in the spring to a lighter soil which will drain well so that over watering will become less of an issue. I think you will see very much improved growth at that time when it will be getting natural light and have happier roots. There is much advice available for you when you do repot.
For now I would suggest that you invest in at least one and possibly two CF (compact fluorescent) lighting fixtures, into which you can screw two coiled CF bulbs and hang over and close to the tree. This will supply plenty enough light to maintain those needs while it over-winters in your house. The bulbs can be of any color temp. and should be equivalent to 100watt incandescent bulbs for best results.
Here is a link to show you what I'm referring to:
https://www.homedepot.com/Lighting-Fans-Worklights/h_d1/N-5yc1vZ1xgfZaqn9/R-100664506/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053
The fixture was made for incandescent bulbs but those screw-in fluorescents work very nicely and throw much more intense light which your tree will appreciate. The fixture shown is 8.5" and also comes in an 11" size which is the size I use for better coverage.
I see you have a drip tray. Keep it full of water and if you can, mist the leaves of the tree daily to supply some humidity lacking inside the average home in winter.
Hi
Thanks for all the advice so far. I have watered the tree as described and have improved the light. I noticed tonight that the tree is loose in the pot I lifts out very easily. I have posted some pictures of the roots, these seem to be starting to grow round and under a lot also there is very little actual soil.
[[url=https://g.imagehost.org/view/0781/P1000668][img]https://g.imagehost.org/t/0781/P1000668.jpg[/img][/url]]
[[url=https://g.imagehost.org/view/0578/P1000667][img]https://g.imagehost.org/t/0578/P1000667.jpg[/img][/url]]
Don't know if this is important as the tree seems to be green and is not sprouting as mad as it had been.
Julie-Ann
Thanks for all the advice so far. I have watered the tree as described and have improved the light. I noticed tonight that the tree is loose in the pot I lifts out very easily. I have posted some pictures of the roots, these seem to be starting to grow round and under a lot also there is very little actual soil.
[[url=https://g.imagehost.org/view/0781/P1000668][img]https://g.imagehost.org/t/0781/P1000668.jpg[/img][/url]]
[[url=https://g.imagehost.org/view/0578/P1000667][img]https://g.imagehost.org/t/0578/P1000667.jpg[/img][/url]]
Don't know if this is important as the tree seems to be green and is not sprouting as mad as it had been.
Julie-Ann
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Gnome
- Super Green Thumb
- Posts: 5122
- Joined: Wed Jul 05, 2006 12:17 am
- Location: Western PA USDA Zone 6A
Julie-Ann,
The tree is rootbound it needs re-potted and the roots will need to be pruned if it is to be returned to the same pot. It's looking more and more like a spring re-potting may be best. Did you have a chance to read the re-potting thread I suggested before.
Apparently I misspoke earlier when I intimated that I knew where you were from. I took Bangor to be from our state of Maine, sorry. There are sources in the UK to purchase ready made bonsai mix or you could try your hand at mixing your own.
There are some very informative article at the website Bonsai4me, Harry is from your neck of the woods.
One is about using kitty litter as bonsai medium.
https://www.bonsai4me.com/Basics/Basicscatlitter.htm
Another deals with improving a Chinese Elm that was purchased as 'Mallsai'
https://www.bonsai4me.com/Basics/Basicsdevelopingmallsai.htm
Norm
The tree is rootbound it needs re-potted and the roots will need to be pruned if it is to be returned to the same pot. It's looking more and more like a spring re-potting may be best. Did you have a chance to read the re-potting thread I suggested before.
Apparently I misspoke earlier when I intimated that I knew where you were from. I took Bangor to be from our state of Maine, sorry. There are sources in the UK to purchase ready made bonsai mix or you could try your hand at mixing your own.
There are some very informative article at the website Bonsai4me, Harry is from your neck of the woods.
One is about using kitty litter as bonsai medium.
https://www.bonsai4me.com/Basics/Basicscatlitter.htm
Another deals with improving a Chinese Elm that was purchased as 'Mallsai'
https://www.bonsai4me.com/Basics/Basicsdevelopingmallsai.htm
Norm
Thank you, thought this might have been the problem.
I have read all the links. My main concern is my tree seems to be growing so I don't know if it will go dormant as it says this is the best time to re pot just before the tree starts to grow again and I don't want to do more damage by repotting now
Should I just wait till spring and the brighter days as I feel this may be affecting how the tree is getting water the soil is very, very compact at the moment.
I have read all the links. My main concern is my tree seems to be growing so I don't know if it will go dormant as it says this is the best time to re pot just before the tree starts to grow again and I don't want to do more damage by repotting now
Should I just wait till spring and the brighter days as I feel this may be affecting how the tree is getting water the soil is very, very compact at the moment.
Hi Julie-Ann,
I'm sure Norm will comment further but I would hesitate to recommend a re-pot at this time. Better to wait until it feels the warmth of spring and longer Photo-period to re-pot, IMO. You will see an increase in growth at that time.
When looking at your tree I see a large distance between leaf nodes which leads me to believe that it's in need of more light. It appears healthy but a bit light needy. It will probably be OK where it is until spring when you re-pot, but I would consider letting it go dormant outside in the fall, allowing it to lose it's leaves and rest before bringing it back in. And if you do decide to bring it back in next year consider augmenting it's natural light with some fluorescent lighting next year.
I'm sure Norm will comment further but I would hesitate to recommend a re-pot at this time. Better to wait until it feels the warmth of spring and longer Photo-period to re-pot, IMO. You will see an increase in growth at that time.
When looking at your tree I see a large distance between leaf nodes which leads me to believe that it's in need of more light. It appears healthy but a bit light needy. It will probably be OK where it is until spring when you re-pot, but I would consider letting it go dormant outside in the fall, allowing it to lose it's leaves and rest before bringing it back in. And if you do decide to bring it back in next year consider augmenting it's natural light with some fluorescent lighting next year.
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Victrinia Ridgeway
- Senior Member
- Posts: 264
- Joined: Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:46 am
- Location: Bremerton, WA
Your roots are not that bad really... and you have white root tip activity which indicates it's in an active growing state. It does not need to be repotted. The only reason to repot it at the moment would be if the tree was in crisis and repotting it is a do or die situation where you also have ideal conditions for aftercare.
Just give it a good home with nice stable conditions and let it be... remembering that as soon as it's warm enough, you should transition it to living outdoors for the growing season. It'll drop the leaves it has grown over winter, but in a few weeks after it'll put on slightly waxy leaves which will be able to defend it from the sun. Filtered sunlight is best at first... if you have none, set up a shade cloth to protect it while it gets used to being outdoors.
Before you decide to repot it this spring, please find an experianced local to assist you, or please come back and ask for some advice before attempting it. More trees are killed by repotting than not. Yours is a tree with very good potential. I would happily own it... and frankly, that's saying something...lol It's been well trained for some time, and lacks the exaggerated dragon curves common to the training many of these trees receive. It's a wonderful first tree... the kind I always hope people will give themselves. But it's also important to realize there is a balance between nurturing and smothering a bonsai. As I said before, a stable and consistent growing envoirnment is the best thing you can do.
One important note, I am sure was addressed in the linked article, but I'll say it as well. If you decide to use kitty litter... sift it. You can order bonsai sifting screens on line, and they will help you get consistent particles. The presence of tiny particles will compact and prevent good drainage and reduce available oxygen at the roots.
Kindest regards,
Victrinia
Just give it a good home with nice stable conditions and let it be... remembering that as soon as it's warm enough, you should transition it to living outdoors for the growing season. It'll drop the leaves it has grown over winter, but in a few weeks after it'll put on slightly waxy leaves which will be able to defend it from the sun. Filtered sunlight is best at first... if you have none, set up a shade cloth to protect it while it gets used to being outdoors.
Before you decide to repot it this spring, please find an experianced local to assist you, or please come back and ask for some advice before attempting it. More trees are killed by repotting than not. Yours is a tree with very good potential. I would happily own it... and frankly, that's saying something...lol It's been well trained for some time, and lacks the exaggerated dragon curves common to the training many of these trees receive. It's a wonderful first tree... the kind I always hope people will give themselves. But it's also important to realize there is a balance between nurturing and smothering a bonsai. As I said before, a stable and consistent growing envoirnment is the best thing you can do.
One important note, I am sure was addressed in the linked article, but I'll say it as well. If you decide to use kitty litter... sift it. You can order bonsai sifting screens on line, and they will help you get consistent particles. The presence of tiny particles will compact and prevent good drainage and reduce available oxygen at the roots.
Kindest regards,
Victrinia
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Gnome
- Super Green Thumb
- Posts: 5122
- Joined: Wed Jul 05, 2006 12:17 am
- Location: Western PA USDA Zone 6A
Julie-Ann,
It seems we are all in agreement that now is not the best time to disturb your tree. It has had enough stress recently so for the time being do as Victrinia recommends, just maintain it in a favorable environment and allow it to recover. You have time to consider your options, in the meantime continue your research and if you are able find a local club or enthusiast, that is an excellent suggestion as well. Please make sure to let us know how it goes for you.
Norm
It seems we are all in agreement that now is not the best time to disturb your tree. It has had enough stress recently so for the time being do as Victrinia recommends, just maintain it in a favorable environment and allow it to recover. You have time to consider your options, in the meantime continue your research and if you are able find a local club or enthusiast, that is an excellent suggestion as well. Please make sure to let us know how it goes for you.
Norm