Help with a fukien tea...

[nohlja]

My bonsai tree is dying and I don't own any bonsai books but I have been doing as much research online as I can but thought someone on here may be able to give me some more personal advice as to what I should do to save it.'
First off the tree is a fukien tea tree that I purchased at the end of august. I believe it is 8-12 years old. The tree has been very healthy always growing new leaves and flowers and just flourishing all the time up until about 3 weeks ago. At this time I noticed bugs on the flowers and a white mold began growing on the soil. After research I found the bugs to be aphids and was able to successfully deal with that problem. This left me with just the mold issue which through online research I found that repotting was about the only option.
So I went about repotting the tree about 3 days ago. I removed the tree from the pot and went about removing the soil mass from the roots. It was extremely compacted and took quite awhile working with forks (probably a bad idea) to remove all of the dirt from the root mass. I then placed the tree in a store bought bonsai mix because I wasn't confident in mixing my own soil. This soil is essentially small rocks and gravel with a little bit of bark in it. Since the repotting the tree has did terrible. I'm not sure if I put it into shock or if its the soil or what is going on but it is dying and fast I believe. All the leaves that used to be full and strong are turning yellow and black and falling off. I have probably lost almost a 1/4 of the leaves it once had.
Since it is doing bad I was thinking the new soil mix had something to do with it and that it is not getting the nutrients that it needs. I was thinking of repotting it again but I don't know if this is a good or bad idea? If I repot it should I order some soil online or what should it be planted in? I have read a lot online about planting it in only sphagnum moss and people seem to be having great results with this. Does anyone have experience with sphagnum moss? This seems like a viable option as my tree is a tropical tree. Any suggestions would be great.
Thanks for any help,
Jake

[djlen]

Hi Jake and welcome -

Well, we have all had issues of one type or another with this tree, myself included, but I will try to help if I can.
First, how did you get rid of that Aphids? Fukiens are very fragile when it comes to insecticides and there are a few which it's very touchy with. I started using Safer's Soap for Aphids (they are an Aphid magnet) and the tree doesn't seem to mind that at all. I also used Neem Oil but got better results with the Safer's Soap.

Also, they are very touchy about a change in environment. When I did a re-pot I experienced the same blackening of some of the leaves, drying and falling. The tree recovered and did come back.
About 10 days ago I had Aphids again and took it outside to thoroughly spray it and killed all the bugs but the tree reacted terribly to the change in temp. while outside and black leaves were the result again. It is recovering from that now and seems back on track.
A re-pot is not a good idea for a weak tree but now that it's done you have to live with it. I am a bit worried about your description of the medium you used to re-pot it into. Can you explain what it consists of in more detail?
Assuming the medium you're using is not too bad my suggestion is to put it in bright location under fluorescent lighting, out of drafts, with good air circulation and leave it there to recover. When you tell us more about your potting material we can make more suggestions.
I mist my Fukiens 2 or 3 times a day and they seem to like that alot. They like warmth, steady temp. and light.

[nohlja]

Thanks.
Here is a link to the soil I am using...
[url=https://www.amazon.com/Bonsai-Soil-Mix-2-Quarts/dp/B00147Z8S2/?_encoding=UTF8&tag=thehelpfulgar-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325]https://www.amazon.com/Bonsai-Soil-Mix-2-Quarts/dp/B00147Z8S2/[/url]
After reading your reply I am worried it may be part the repotting and part the temperature changes. I live in Minnesota and it is gotten COLD here in the past few weeks and even though it is in my house I'm' sure it is still quite a bit colder than it has been the past few months. What kind of lighting would I need to supply it with to get good results? I also just picked up a bag of the sphagnum moss to and was thinking of repotting it in there?
Jake

Oh and no I had read that insecticides were bad for tea trees so I just sprayed it with water and put lady bugs on it to get rid of the aphids.

[djlen]

I'm feeling much better about your soil now. The 'small rocks' are probably a clay based material that will help lighten and aerate it. Sounds good for now and I'd leave it in there. I would not re-pot again now.

I use 40" fluorescent shop lights....the kind you see hanging over work benches.....and for my Fukiens I add a screw-in compact fluorescent bulb and put that as close to the plant as possible without touching it. If you don't want to buy the huge shop light, go to Home Depot and ask for Clamp-on single bulb shop lights. They are very inexpensive an very nice for a single application. Both will probably cost you less than $6. They come with aluminum shades that reflect the light on the tree nicely. Mine are 8 1/2" across. They will clamp onto a shelf or anything that is above the tree.
Buy two screw-in CF bulbs.....the kind you use to replace the incandescents in your house when they burn out.
Pick up an inexpensive hand mister and you are in business.

[nohlja]

Ok well I wasn't able to get the lights until now and the tree is continuing to look worse and worse. I have posted a couple of pictures below. This is probably getting close to half the leaves it had before and the ones that are there are looking terrible. They are paper thin and yellow and turning black and falling off constantly. It acts like it is getting no water at all but I have been over watering it probably in hopes that is would suck some up. I don't really have the space/money to set up the larger light system so I am hoping that I can get by with the one single bulb shoplight that has the 8" shade. I am confused about what light bulb needs to be purchased though. I had a 60W Mini spiral fluorescent bulb that I put above the plant for a night and it seemed to do nothing at all, the tree looked the same or worse in the morning. What bulb is it that I need? I could purchase one more shade to if that would be necassary?
I am also thinking the tree may be planted a little high in the pot?
Thanks for all the help,
Jake
[img]https://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad115/nohlja/Fukien%20Tea/100_1174.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad115/nohlja/Fukien%20Tea/100_1177.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad115/nohlja/Fukien%20Tea/100_1182.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad115/nohlja/Fukien%20Tea/100_1183.jpg[/img]

[djlen]

The ones I use are the 27 or 28 watt CF that are the equivalent of a 100watt incandescent bulb. I would get another fixture and put a 100watt equiv. CF in it and then put them no more than 8" away from the tree.
Don't over water the tree. Every other day should be OK plus misting if you can. Also, it looks fine in the pot and the soil looks good.
Keep in mind that you have made a bunch of changes recently and they 'complain' with each change even if it's good for them...
Stay the course and lets see if you don't start seeing some new green growth soon.
Nutrients will be in the picture but not for now. Let's see if it recovers first.
BTW, it's a nice tree!!!

[toscgwsndiqz]

When you water tropical trees use warm water
and possibly a heat pad to keep the roots warm

https://www.growerssupply.com/farm/supp ... 03644.html

[djlen]

When you water tropical trees use warm water
and possibly a heat pad to keep the roots warm

https://www.growerssupply.com/farm/supp ... 03644.html

I have found this advice helpful for germinating certain seeds and then helping develop root systems.
I use water that is simply dechlorinated (allowed to sit out for an hour or two) and is room temp.
No need to warm the water for Fukiens, IME.

[nohlja]

Ok thanks for all of the help guys.
I now have two 100W daylight compact fluorecents about 4-5 inches above the plant. It does not seem to be getting too hot by it so I am just continuing to water it and hoping it comes back. No new growth yet. Should the lights be left on all day every day or shut off at night or what do they like?
Thanks Jake

[Gnome]

Jake,

Get an inexpensive timer and put your lights on it. I keep mine on 16 hours a day.

Norm

[maveriiick]

I have 2 Fukien Tea trees under fluorescent lighting (broad spectrum) and use a humidity tray. And both are quite happy. The secret IMHO is to watch out for pests (mealy bugs, aphids, etc.) as this plant is HIGHLY susceptible to pests AND letting the soil DRY OUT between waterings. I then fully soak the tree with room temperatured water. I occasionally mist, but misting seems to turn the white flowers brown.

[maveriiick]

https://www.bonsaihunk.us/info/FukienTea.html

[nohlja]

Thanks for the help. That is a really good website.
Thanks

[capnk]

Jake,
Based on your description of the repot, I suspect the underlying problem is root rot. You have received some very good advice so far, but it's difficult to recover from this stage if root rot was the cause.
We have had some success in rehabilitating trees suffering from root rot by soaking the roots in Zero Tol. Zero Tol comes in a very concentrated form, and we use a dilution of 1.23 ounces in a gallon of water. I am not suggesting that you repot the tree again.
Whenever you repot any tree and prune the roots, it is a good idea to mist the tree frequently for a couple of weeks. Since it's winter in Minnesota, I suspect your environment is very dry, and even more reason to mist the tree.
Good luck,
Chris

[maveriiick]

Jake,
Based on your description of the repot, I suspect the underlying problem is root rot. You have received some very good advice so far, but it's difficult to recover from this stage if root rot was the cause.
We have had some success in rehabilitating trees suffering from root rot by soaking the roots in Zero Tol. Zero Tol comes in a very concentrated form, and we use a dilution of 1.23 ounces in a gallon of water. I am not suggesting that you repot the tree again.
Whenever you repot any tree and prune the roots, it is a good idea to mist the tree frequently for a couple of weeks. Since it's winter in Minnesota, I suspect your environment is very dry, and even more reason to mist the tree.
Good luck,
Chris

I just looked this up. Is there anywhere to buy this for personal use. Pricing for professional use is atrocious.

https://www.biconet.com/disease/zt.html

[capnk]

Jake,
I'm afraid it is expensive, and only comes in large jugs.
Do you know any commercial nursery people that might sell you just a few ounces?
If you belong to a bonsai club, or have a circle of bonsai friends, you might consider buying a jug as a group.
The ZeroTol is an excellent anti-fungal agent and insecticide. It has a unique mode of action. We dip trees in it and spray with no concern for damage to the trees.
Good luck,
Chris

[Victrinia Ridgeway]

Fukien's get so irritated by nearly anything, moving them from one part of a room to another can kill them if the temps, humidity, or air flow is different. So taking a fussy tree and completely bare rooting it in winter, when the house is cooler... is likely enough to do it in, especially if the root work was done with a fork. There are tiny hairs on the root tips which take in the water vapors... if they get completely damaged, especially when it's not in a growing season where it can recover... the likelihood of having done irreversible damage is very high.

Soon enough You'll know how the story ends. that's one nice thing about them… they don't mess around when they decide to give up the ghost… they tend to just do it. I truly hope that is not the case for yours.

In the future I would recommend not completely bare rooting the tree when you first get it. it's better to learn about the tree’s habits the first year you have it, unless its survival is at stake in the environment it is in. With certain trees you can be brutal to its roots and it won't care… but with many trees they care very much, and the when is as important as the how. While it is possible and fine to repot a tropical tree in winter, it is best to make sure you have an optimum growing environment to keep it in afterwards: warm, good humidity, well lit… etc. After care is a critical component to tree survival following a repot.

Capnk is lucky… he has greenhouses and cold frames the size of barns. So he can do darn near anything any time… because he has controlled environments in which to provide that aftercare.

Kindest regards & good luck,

Victrinia

[FLBonsai]

I'm feeling much better about your soil now. The 'small rocks' are probably a clay based material that will help lighten and aerate it. Sounds good for now and I'd leave it in there. I would not re-pot again now.

I use 40" fluorescent shop lights....the kind you see hanging over work benches.....and for my Fukiens I add a screw-in compact fluorescent bulb and put that as close to the plant as possible without touching it. If you don't want to buy the huge shop light, go to Home Depot and ask for Clamp-on single bulb shop lights. They are very inexpensive an very nice for a single application. Both will probably cost you less than $6. They come with aluminum shades that reflect the light on the tree nicely. Mine are 8 1/2" across. They will clamp onto a shelf or anything that is above the tree.
Buy two screw-in CF bulbs.....the kind you use to replace the incandescents in your house when they burn out.
Pick up an inexpensive hand mister and you are in business.

I hope you have aditional lights for the plants flowering cycle.

[nohlja]

Yeah all of the little tiny hair roots on the big roots were pretty much removed and thats what I was worried about. Although now that I have the two bulbs shining on the plant for like 18 hours aday the tree has quit dieing it seems. Nearly 3/4 of the leaves turned yellow and black within 4 days of the repot and now that the lights are installed the last 1/4 of the leaves have been pretty healthy. they are getting thick again so they must be getting water I believe but there is no new growth anywhere. Will this take awhile? To start seeing new leaves? Is it a good possibility it will live at this point since the leaves are not dropping anymore??
Thanks
Jake

[Victrinia Ridgeway]

There is always hope...

It'll take a few weeks for any new leaves to pop. Just make sure not to stress it anymore.

Good luck!

Victrinia

[djlen]

I'm feeling much better about your soil now. The 'small rocks' are probably a clay based material that will help lighten and aerate it. Sounds good for now and I'd leave it in there. I would not re-pot again now.

I use 40" fluorescent shop lights....the kind you see hanging over work benches.....and for my Fukiens I add a screw-in compact fluorescent bulb and put that as close to the plant as possible without touching it. If you don't want to buy the huge shop light, go to Home Depot and ask for Clamp-on single bulb shop lights. They are very inexpensive an very nice for a single application. Both will probably cost you less than $6. They come with aluminum shades that reflect the light on the tree nicely. Mine are 8 1/2" across. They will clamp onto a shelf or anything that is above the tree.
Buy two screw-in CF bulbs.....the kind you use to replace the incandescents in your house when they burn out.
Pick up an inexpensive hand mister and you are in business.

I hope you have aditional lights for the plants flowering cycle.

I find these lights to be adequate for the trees that I have. They flower freely for me under them.

[FLBonsai]

I hope you have aditional lights for the plants flowering cycle.

I find these lights to be adequate for the trees that I have. They flower freely for me under them.

Wow that's amazing

Most vegetables would never flower or produce under that light.

You should try out a flowering light or borrow one just to see if there is any difference

[djlen]

I have little experience with indoor bonsai but much experience with Aquatic plants many of which flower. From that experience I know what fluorescent light can do for plants. I've had good success with what I use.
It's cheap and affective. Why would I change something that works.