Organic vs Inorganic Fertilizers

[a0c8c]

Agreed with bonsai bonsaiboy. The chemical preps are generally more effective, less messy, and less of a health hazard. I use, exclusively, non-natural fertilizers. BTW, the same holds true for pesticides. Those pesticides used in "organic" farming are a greater health risk to humans than the FDA approved pesticides.

What!? Organic farming doesn't use pesticides! How could it be more dangerous? I have neevr heard once, about an organic fertilizer being dangerous. Sure there some small risks with composting, but anything you buy will be 100x better for your health than chemicals would be. I'd rather have a slight smell(it should never be strong) rather than have chemicals in my house which build up in you system over time and can lead to cancer. Just my opinion.

[bewildered_nmsu]

What!? Organic farming doesn't use pesticides! How could it be more dangerous? I have neevr heard once, about an organic fertilizer being dangerous. Sure there some small risks with composting, but anything you buy will be 100x better for your health than chemicals would be. I'd rather have a slight smell(it should never be strong) rather than have chemicals in my house which build up in you system over time and can lead to cancer. Just my opinion.

The chemicals in Miracle Grow are exactly the same as the chemicals in organic fertilizers, they just come from a lab instead of from fish or kelp or...whatever. Also, emulsified, rotting fish could be seen as a health risk, don't you think?

[a0c8c]

I'm sorry, but my Organic products don't come with an MSDS.

https://hpd.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/household/brands?tbl=brands&id=19026021

[bewildered_nmsu]

I'm sorry, but my Organic products don't come with an MSDS.

https://hpd.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/household/brands?tbl=brands&id=19026021

Who would use that Miracle Gro product for bonsai, anyway? By that links admission, there are no carcinogens in Miracle Gro, though you mentioned being worried about cancer. Also, Urea (which is the primary concern according to this link) is used in many "Organic" fertilizers as well.

[JTred]

If I'm not mistaken, urea is in urine as well. You wouldn't want urine in your eyes either. Also, just because it's FDA certified "organic" that doesn't mean exactly what you think. That means it meets a certain standard to bear that label, just like "caffeine-free soda" isn't really caffeine free.

P.S. I don't have anything against organic growing practices, I just find it funny that it's called organic. If they know so much about the harmful effects of chemicals, don't they know "organic" means that it is primarily composed of carbon?

[a0c8c]

Don't they know "organic" means that it is primarily composed of carbon?

Why yes, the "browns" are carbon rich materials, and the "greens" and nitrogen rich materials. It's the basic principle of compost, which is where most Organic products come from, one way or another.

[applestar]

Sorry, de-lurking in the Bonsai forum to comment that this topic struck me as funny. Considering the long cultural history of Bonsai, I don't think chemical fertilizers were used until "relatively" recently.... On the Japanese Bonsai sites, they talk about applying "Aburakasu = fermented/composted rapeseed oil-pressing residues, sometimes fortified with fish and rice bran" at certain times of the year, but avoiding them during the rainy/mold-prone seasons. Cottonseed meal or soybean meal might be a close approximation.
OK, I'm gone ...

[kdodds]

Agreed with bonsai bonsaiboy. The chemical preps are generally more effective, less messy, and less of a health hazard. I use, exclusively, non-natural fertilizers. BTW, the same holds true for pesticides. Those pesticides used in "organic" farming are a greater health risk to humans than the FDA approved pesticides.

What!? Organic farming doesn't use pesticides! How could it be more dangerous? I have neevr heard once, about an organic fertilizer being dangerous. Sure there some small risks with composting, but anything you buy will be 100x better for your health than chemicals would be. I'd rather have a slight smell(it should never be strong) rather than have chemicals in my house which build up in you system over time and can lead to cancer. Just my opinion.

ALL commercial farming, organic or otherwise uses pesticides of one form or another. I suggest you look into it a little further if you believe that that is incorrect. As for composition, bewildered_nmsu is 100% correct, the chemicals (nitrates, phosphates, potassium) used in fertilizers are essentially the same. Chemical fertilizers are "more pure" and don't have the organics added. It would be fairly simple to add them, but why? Especially for indoor culture, organic fertilizers can, and often do, become septic cesspools. What exactly do you think is breaking down those organics? It's definitely not the trees, that's for sure. This is the whole reason why incidence of E. coli, Staph, Strep, etc. concentration is higher in organic produce. Remember the nationwide organic spinach scare? Anyway, there's no fundamental difference in taste, or nutrition, between "organically" and traditionally farmed produce. In fact, in many cases, the traditional produce is blind taste preferred by those favoring organic produce. The ONLY difference, beside the increased health risks with organic produce is that it costs much more and require more land to produce less yield. As far as whether or not it's better for the environment, that's debatable, and definitely there are a lot of strongly logical points that point to organic farming actually being worse for the environment.

[applestar]

Ooh, them's are fightin' words around here! I'm definitely heading for cover.
Peeking out to yell "Keep it civil, folks!" blowing the whistle, and ducking back under.

[a0c8c]

ALL commercial farming, organic or otherwise uses pesticides of one form or another.

Umm. Organic growers DO NOT use chemical persticides, it's completely against the Organic way. Also, natural pesticides don't come with the cancer issues chemicals do. Part of being Organic, especially Certified Organic, is not being grown with chemicals of any kind, including pesticides. Maybe it's You who should read up a little more.

As for composition, bewildered_nmsu is 100% correct, the chemicals (nitrates, phosphates, potassium) used in fertilizers are essentially the same. Chemical fertilizers are "more pure" and don't have the organics added.

Yes you're right, Nitrogen is Nitrogen, no matter where it comes from. But being water soluable, chemical fertilizers leach into your ecosystem causing major damage, where as organic products, being natural, don't. Broken down leaves and grass won't hurt anything, especially since nature does it itself.

It would be fairly simple to add them, but why? Especially for indoor culture, organic fertilizers can, and often do, become septic cesspools. What exactly do you think is breaking down those organics? It's definitely not the trees, that's for sure. This is the whole reason why incidence of E. coli, Staph, Strep, etc. concentration is higher in organic produce. Remember the nationwide organic spinach scare?

A pool of water with a chemical fertilizer, will become just as septic as one with organics, maybe not as soon, but it still will. E. Coli, Staph, and Strep are NOT the bacteria we use to break down things. That's just ludacris. Oh, by the way, Staph lives on your skin naturally, so I wouldn't get too worried about it, you're a walking bacteria farm. And yes, I remember the spinach scare, which by the way was NOT from organic growers, but from farms using fertilizers and pesticides. So ummm, why would Organic growers even be brought into the discussion there?

Anyway, there's no fundamental difference in taste, or nutrition, between "organically" and traditionally farmed produce. In fact, in many cases, the traditional produce is blind taste preferred by those favoring organic produce.

Organic growing is not just about taste, oh and since most Organic growers grow heirloom crops, they actually do infact taste better. Hybrid tomatoes cross bred for transportation are gonna taste the same with or without fertilizers. Even if they were to taste the same, the point of growing organic is to not fill your body full of chemicals. The long time build up of chemicals in you system leads to things like cancer later in life.

The ONLY difference, beside the increased health risks with organic produce is that it costs much more and require more land to produce less yield. As far as whether or not it's better for the environment, that's debatable, and definitely there are a lot of strongly logical points that point to organic farming actually being worse for the environment.

I'm sorry, but there is no increased health risks with Organic crops when done properly. Saying their unhealthy is a straight lie, ask all the Organic growers here if they've been poisoning themselves with E. Coli and you'll soon realise none of them have. It doesn't really take more land either, in fact it takes the same amount of land. Oh and check out the Tomato forum, and see how much more fruit is coming from their plants than from tomatoes grown with fertililzers. And please, show me anything that show organic growing to be bad for the environment. I'm pretty sure doing it the way Nature wants you to, is not going to hurt Nature.

[bewildered_nmsu]

Umm. Organic growers DO NOT use chemical persticides, it's completely against the Organic way. Also, natural pesticides don't come with the cancer issues chemicals do. Part of being Organic, especially Certified Organic, is not being grown with chemicals of any kind, including pesticides. Maybe it's You who should read up a little more.

This is irrelevant to the topic. We are talking about fertilizers.

A pool of water with a chemical fertilizer, will become just as septic as one with organics, maybe not as soon, but it still will. E. Coli, Staph, and Strep are NOT the bacteria we use to break down things. That's just ludacris. Oh, by the way, Staph lives on your skin naturally, so I wouldn't get too worried about it, you're a walking bacteria farm. And yes, I remember the spinach scare, which by the way was NOT from organic growers, but from farms using fertilizers and pesticides. So ummm, why would Organic growers even be brought into the discussion there?

it's obvious that E. coli is not used for composting, however because composts are composed of rotting animal and plant matter, the risk of these diseases proliferating is a real concern with organic gardening. There is no such concern with chemical fertilizers.

Organic growing is not just about taste, oh and since most Organic growers grow heirloom crops, they actually do infact taste better. Hybrid tomatoes cross bred for transportation are gonna taste the same with or without fertilizers. Even if they were to taste the same, the point of growing organic is to not fill your body full of chemicals. The long time build up of chemicals in you system leads to things like cancer later in life.

Again this is irrelevant to the topic. We are talking about fertilizers and the link you posted earlier specifically states that Miracle Gro contains no carcinogens, so your fear of cancers from fertilizers seems unfounded by your own admission.

It doesn't really take more land either, in fact it takes the same amount of land.

It seems to me like you are making a lot of claims that are baseless given the facts that you are giving us (or not giving us).

[kdodds]

All pesticides are chemical pesticides, their source is irrelevant. An herbal pesticide can be as dangerous or more dangerous than FDA approved "chemical" pesticides, including being toxic to humans and carcinogenic. "Organic" does not mean "safe". And yes, every commercial farm, organic or otherwise, uses pesticides. Do yourself a favor and have a visit to a commercial "organic" farm, ask for a tour, ask some probing questions. I am well informed on these topics specifically because I have a daughter who is something of a neo-hippie and presses these issues. She chooses to believe the organic faith, which really is such, rather than investigate the facts I present to her. All fertilizers make it back into the ground, back into the enironment. Being more or less water soluble only grants easier access to the chemicals by the plants they're intended to fertilizer, meaning much LESS can be used with chemical fertilizers than organic, leading to LESS buildup, over time, of nutrients, not more. Just because something is "natural" does not make it "safer" for nature. This is an incredible misconception. Nature harms itself all of the time, it also recovers from that harm most of the time, but sometimes it doesn't. Anything that upsets the balance of a localized eco-system, including ANY type of farming, effects that eco-system. Whether or not that effect causes a breakdown of the eco-system is no more or less likely dependent upon the source, but more the extent, of the "damage". A pool of water with chemical fertilizer added will not become as septic as fast as one with organic fertilizer. The chemical fertilizer lacks the organics, sometimes septic, bacteria break down. It does not draw other pathogen carries, like insects, either. There just aren't the organics there, no bacteria food, no bacteria, the equation is simple. Septic bacteria are not necessarily "used" in composting, but their presence and concentration is MUCH higher where organic fertilizers are used. The spinach scare was from pre-packaged spinach, originating fro the largest organic grower in California, as far as I recall, I think it was "Earthbound Farms", something like that maybe. The blind taste tests I've seen, formal and informal, have all pointed to taste not being better, sorry. And the chemical composition of the produce is identical, regardless of growth method. Because organic methods produce less yield, to get an equal yield on a commercial level requires more land. This, in itself, is worse for the environment.

[bewildered_nmsu]

This thread began as a question from one of the members about what the best fertilizer to use for Bonsai is. For some reason when there was a disagreement the beginning part of the thread was removed. All this discussion about pesticides and organic farming is irrelevant to the topic (though it is stimulating).

That said, I prefer chemical fertilizers over organic because I have never seen anything but the distinct superiority of chemical fertilizers for use with bonsai. They are mostly odorless, growth is more vigorous, they are cheaper and common sense tells me that they are safer than organic fertilizers.

[bonsaiboy]

I support chemical fertilizers simply because they are easier (for me) to use, and as far as I can tell, the same or superior to organic fertilizers for the type of bonsai I grow. This does not mean, however, I limit myself strictly to artificial chemicals. Neem oil is considered an organic pesticide, and it is my favorite to use. I think the best thing anyone can do is choose for themselves which one they prefer based on their specific situation.