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Advice Please? :) Juniper and Maple

Um. Wall of text, anyone? :P

I am not *completely* new to bonsai, but I may as well be. :) I have had bonsai before, but they never survived long. Part of this is because I am a full time college student, and my permanent residence (PA) is on the other side of the country from my college (AZ). This summer, my plants seem to be doing remarkably well, but I thought I would have the foresight to ask for advice ahead of time so I'm more informed when bumps come along. Feel free to tell me I've got delusions. :P

There are pictures here: [url]https://picasaweb.google.com/cftalo/Bonsai#[/url]

The first tree has been dubbed "Dan" - short for a fantasy language translation of "Long Branch." I'm the weird sort of person who names everything. :P I got Dan in AZ from a traveling bonsai salesman. I've heard good and bad things about buying touristy type bonsai, but I talked with the guy a while, and it seemed he knew what he was talking about. And the tree that I did end up buying seemed to have this healthy air about it - something I'd never noticed in any other trees I'd bought. The guy's instructions to me were to keep the plant moist, the humidity high, and to frequently put the plant outside. AZ doesn't have the nicest climate, so I only put him outside after the brutal morning sun had passed into the shade of the building, and I took him inside each night to avoid said sun. I believed I didn't have to mist the tree because the pot Dan came in is a split pot - one side tree, the other side a tiny pond.

Dan did great all the way until the ride home, and a little bit after. This was my first time driving home (with my bf) and I knew that the climate change would be rough on the tree - I'd discussed it with the guy I bought it from. We carefully held him on our laps and watered him whenever he dried out a little. This was frequently, because I didn't want to water too much and have it drain out the hole in the bottom into my lap and all over the floor of my car. :) There's a picture of him on my lap - he has a long trailing branch which we tucked inside the pond side so it wouldn't accidentally get stuck on something. A week or so after I got home, Dan had developed some brown spots, which I'd expected. The BF is good with plants and explained it: "He's got a cold."

So the pictures are of Dan and his shrinking brown spots. He has a trunk that twists around itself. My future plans for him are more maintenance - someone has already done the bulk of the styling for me, all I need to do is maintain it. The guy I bought it from said that when bonsai need to be re-potted, the roots start mounding up at the base of the trunk. Dan's already had quite a mound when I got him, so I think it's soon time to re-pot him. the only other thing I'd like to do is perhaps gently loosen the curl of his trunk so that I can have him curl around something like the quartz point that is sitting in the pot.



Ok so I'm home for the summer, and Mom and I are perusing the garden when we come across this small maple sapling. "Aww, how cute!" I say. Mom half frowns "I don't want that there..." and she moves to pull it up. I gasp in shock. "Don't do that! I want it!"

Long story short, I now also have a maple seedling. I do not know what kind of maple it is (yet), but I suspect it is either a Norway or a Red because those are the most common here. I went to a nearby nursery and bought a pot, some plant food (used for Dan too), and soil. I got some screening to cover the holes - Mom uses coffee filters for her potted plants, but it didn't drain enough to suit my tastes. I was rather impressed with the bag of soil because we'd debated going and getting gravel for drainage in the bottom of the pot, but the soil was half gravel-type. I mixed it with some potting soil because our natural soil has a lot of clay in it, and I didn't want it to be quite THAT much of a change. So I potted it up, put it on my windowsill with Dan, watered it regularly and waited with baited breath.

I just wanted to interject here that I know bonsai are supposed to be outside, but I've mentioned this whole "killer of plants" thing? Half the problem was that I'd forget to water, and if the plants are on my windowsill next to my bed, I don't forget this. The window is open a lot, and gets quite a bit of sun in the afternoon. When it is no longer chilly and rainy here, I will venture out with them and put them outside during the day.

A week later, and I notice that Dan's brown spots are shrinking and he's got a TON of new buds, and the maple has sprouted new leaves! Let me take a moment to bask, this whole concept of my plants actually growing is just amazing to me. :P


The maple is going to be a challenge - skinny, rather tall, completely untrained. The main trunk was already broken when I dug it up. I did some shopping and sort of liked this: [url]https://home.versateladsl.be/graulusjl/bonsai%20acer%20palmatum%20japonica.html[/url]
That's the idea, anyways - informal upright.

I finally realized that bonsai things take a long time; that's probably what I was doing wrong before, is trying to rush things. So I haven't done anything in the way of training, I just want to have a picture in my head.

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Gnome
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Storm,

Welcome to the forum.
I thought I would have the foresight to ask for advice ahead of time so I'm more informed when bumps come along. Feel free to tell me I've got delusions.
Perhaps not delusions but definitely some challenges and a few decisions ahead of you. As a student the traveling is going to be an issue. Also, both the Juniper and the Maple require a dormancy period to survive, neither of these species belong inside. If you are not able to accommodate them in Arizona you may be better off to leave them behind in the care of a trusted steward.

You did well with the bonsai mix and avoiding the coffee filter, drainage is one of the keystones (keystones, PA, :wink:) of bonsai especially for evergreens like your Juniper. The soil should not be staying constantly damp, by the way.

Unfortunately, the Maple should not be in a bonsai pot yet, and if you continue this practice its development will be greatly slowed. Bonsai generally spend years, even decades, either in the ground or in growing boxes before they ever see a bonsai pot. The pot you have it in is OK in the short term as it is oversize and will function as a grow box/container for now.

It would really have been better to transplant it to a location in your parents yard where it would not be a problem. This way the tree would benefit from a few years of growth while you finish your education and get established some where. Even a decade is not out of line to develop a good trunk. Check [url=https://www.evergreengardenworks.com/trunks.htm]this[/url] out.

Not trying to be a 'wet blanket' or anything but it is better to get some possible misconceptions out of the way early on so that you can benefit from the years you have ahead of you rather than struggle along as many, myself included, have before you.

There are other species that are more suitable for indoor culture and some of our other members are better able to make suggestions than I.

I'm sure I speak for several others when I say we would be happy to continue this discussion, whatever direction you decide to take.

Norm

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I was afraid you were going to say that. :( But getting misconceptions out of the way is exactly what I was looking for, so thanks. :)

Ok first question - What is a nebari?

I think that my fear now is that if I take the maple out of the pot and put it back in the ground that it will be too much for the little guy right now. Maybe at the end of the summer? I've also read that if I put him in the ground, it would be good to plant it on a tile or something to spread out the root system.

If this is the case, then it sounds like I would only be taking 1 tree back to AZ with me. Sorry, but there's not really anybody I would trust with something that's this much my "pet" - fuschias and dahlias are one thing, but I guess I feel like I'm giving away my kid?

Should I trim off the broken part of the trunk and leave the other two branches, letting it bend the way it is? If I cut it, will it start to grow again?

I did see the information on a dormancy period. It sounds like the maple will be in the ground in PA, so I only have to worry about him getting frozen to death, or eaten. :P I believe that I can accommodate Dan with one in AZ. Believe it or not, during the winter out there it gets almost as chilly as PA, especially at night - consistent 40-50deg during the day, colder at night. If that's not enough, can I keep him in the fridge?

I realize that there are other plants better suited for more indoor living, but I'm very partial to evergreens. Both my BF and I are from a very green area, where the maple and delicate pines (not the huge ponderosas in AZ) are some of the most common trees. Ok, so the maple will spend 5-10 years in the ground, but then to be able to have one we can take with us will be very rewarding. :)


Edit for forgetfulness: Was I right about Dan needing to be repotted soon? If I repot him, I was going to use some of that new soil (mixed with potting soil) so he drains a little better.Should I worry about training him, if I want to loosen the curl in his trunk a little bit? Or is that something that gets done during a dormancy period?

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Storm,
I was afraid you were going to say that. :( But getting misconceptions out of the way is exactly what I was looking for, so thanks.
I'm glad to hear you say that this hobby, craft, obsession has a lot to learn and a fairly steep 'learning curve' You can spend years mired in growing seedlings or you can really jump ahead with a few well chosen plants. Not saying that small material is not a good source just that it is not the best way to get started. You can still do younger stuff but work on some more advanced material at the same time.
Ok first question - What is a nebari?
Nebari is the Japanese name for a partially exposed root system that many bonsai have, they give the impression of age and stability. Think of it as the foundation of your tree, a good nebari and trunk are prerequisites for a good bonsai and are not developed quickly.
I think that my fear now is that if I take the maple out of the pot and put it back in the ground that it will be too much for the little guy right now.
You could very well be correct, I have killed plants by trying to do too many things to them in quick succession. There is an old rule of thumb that you should only inflict 'one insult per season'
Maybe at the end of the summer?
That would probably be OK, especially if you do not prune the roots at that time.
If this is the case, then it sounds like I would only be taking 1 tree back to AZ with me.
That is your choice, bear in mind that the Maple is going to be leafless and just sitting there for a good four or five months anyway and even the Juniper will slow greatly and not appear to be doing much. My temperate trees require little attention during the winter, mostly I just leave them alone. If you want something to work on during the winter you want a tropical, or sub-tropical, species.
Should I trim off the broken part of the trunk and leave the other two branches, letting it bend the way it is? If I cut it, will it start to grow again?
You can prune the center branch out, from here it looks like it has already begun to die back anyway. Getting into that tight crotch is going to be tricky with the tools you likely have available. There are specialized bonsai tools available that would help here. Not suggesting you go out and spend $40.00 for one tool just letting you know that they are out there. Google 'concave cutters'.
I did see the information on a dormancy period. It sounds like the maple will be in the ground in PA, so I only have to worry about him getting frozen to death, or eaten.
The Maple was found growing in your yard so you know that it is hardy there as well. Animal or insect damage is something we all have to deal with and could be the subject for another thread or even a whole book. :wink: A chicken wire, or similar, cylinder could easily be fashioned to help protect it. After the ground freezes a layer of mulch will help keep things stable and, believe it or not, snow is a really good insulator. I cover my trees with snow once enough accumulates.
AZ. Believe it or not, during the winter out there it gets almost as chilly as PA, especially at night - consistent 40-50deg during the day, colder at night. If that's not enough, can I keep him in the fridge?
That sounds like it will be cold enough although Junipers can tolerate much lower. I wonder if the freeze/thaw cycle will be a problem though. I keep mine on the ground, mulched in and covered in snow. Not so much to trap heat, although it does, but more to moderate temperature swings.
Was I right about Dan needing to be repotted soon? If I repot him, I was going to use some of that new soil (mixed with potting soil) so he drains a little better.
If I were to guess this tree was probably potted fairly recently, remember time is money and most vendors don't want to keep this sort of thing on hand any longer than necessary. Its a little late in the season but we are having such a late spring you may be able to get away with it. I have done my Juniper twice now, both times in May I believe.

On the other hand the soil it is in is not ideal for a Juniper which requires excellent drainage. I guess it depends upon how daring you are or how lucky you feel. I have done things 'out of season' before and sometimes things work out, sometimes not.
Should I worry about training him, if I want to loosen the curl in his trunk a little bit? Or is that something that gets done during a dormancy period?
I usually suggest that young material not be pruned much, especially if the goal is to grow the material out. But since you bought this as a 'finished bonsai' you can do what you want with it.

That sort of thing is usually done with wire, either Copper or Aluminum. Copper wire needs to be annealed (softened) so you can apply it easily and you are not likely to find annealed wire locally. If you do find something suitable practice on branches cut from a similar tree first. Wiring is a skill in and of itself and can be frustrating at first. Wrap the branch in 45 degree spirals and only bend it once after the wire is applied.

Norm

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a good nebari and trunk are prerequisites for a good bonsai
How do you tell what's good and what isn't?

especially if you do not prune the roots at that time.
I hadn't planned on it. I'm half afraid the tree will devote all its time to growing up instead of growing out - I've seen a lot of saplings of various types that are a good three feet tall and still not much thicker than my maple. Does that depend on the amount of sun?
If you want something to work on during the winter you want a tropical, or sub-tropical, species.
[url]https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=16049[/url]
Will you go make me a recommendation? :D
Getting into that tight crotch is going to be tricky with the tools you likely have available.
Embroidery scissors. ^_^
That sounds like it will be cold enough although Junipers can tolerate much lower. I wonder if the freeze/thaw cycle will be a problem though. I keep mine on the ground, mulched in and covered in snow. Not so much to trap heat, although it does, but more to moderate temperature swings.
I won't be able to put it in the ground, but I can put it outside. I don't think there's a real freeze/thaw cycle out there. There's never a frost, but that could also be because there's no moisture in the air. Is the fridge something I can fall back on?
Hehe, that's funny... a tree in a fridge.
If I were to guess this tree was probably potted fairly recently, remember time is money and most vendors don't want to keep this sort of thing on hand any longer than necessary.
How do you tell if it's been potted fairly recently? I got the impression that this guy never really settled anywhere, just bought/sold trees.
On the other hand the soil it is in is not ideal for a Juniper which requires excellent drainage. I guess it depends upon how daring you are or how lucky you feel. I have done things 'out of season' before and sometimes things work out, sometimes not.
I have noticed the soil, and I'm really looking forward to mixing up that stuff I have for the maple and using it, because it drains really well. The only reason I haven't repotted it yet is because I'm waiting for him to recover a little more from the drive home.
I usually suggest that young material not be pruned much, especially if the goal is to grow the material out.
How do you tell how old a tree is?

I wasn't to go nearly as complicated as actually pruning something... I don't think I'm quite ready for that yet. :P

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Storm,
How do you tell what's good (nebari) and what isn't?
A flat, shallow root system allows the tree to be placed in shallow pots. Evenly radiating roots without large empty spots. Relatively uniform in size. Tapering and ramification. All of these are qualities of a good nebari.

[url=https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=18639#18639]Here[/url] is an example of a young tree and the process of encouraging a flat, even nebari. And [url=https://bonsaibark.com/2009/04/24/in-search-of-the-perfect-nebari-part-five/]here[/url] is an example of a more refined/quality nebari.
I've seen a lot of saplings of various types that are a good three feet tall and still not much thicker than my maple.
Maybe so but that does not change the fact that a period of unrestricted growth is the best way to increase the bulk of the trunk. There is a phrase that you will see a lot, and that is to 'chop' as in 'trunk chop'. After the tree reaches an appropriate diameter the top is removed which forces new growth lower down. This creates movement and taper, two important aspects of most bonsai. This is a very general description and not all species will respond well to this technique so do your research first. My concern over fall root pruning is more about not wanting to encourage new, tender roots just prior to cold weather.
I won't be able to put it in the ground, but I can put it outside.
Not in the ground but on the ground. If the weather is not so harsh there it may not be necessary. Some growers in milder climes do leave their trees on the benches year round but I do not do so here.
Is the fridge something I can fall back on?
That is not really an option with a Juniper which needs at least some sunlight throughout most of the winter.
Hehe, that's funny... a tree in a fridge.
You would not be the first.
How do you tell if it's been potted fairly recently? I got the impression that this guy never really settled anywhere, just bought/sold trees.
You won't know for sure the first time after that you will keep records. Is the tree stable in the pot or does it wiggle around easily? A root bound tree can often be removed from the pot and remain intact. do you get the impression that you could do that or will the soil mass fall apart? Unless it is really root bound you can almost certainly hold out until next year. That does not address the issue of the poor quality of the soil though.
I have noticed the soil, and I'm really looking forward to mixing up that stuff I have for the maple and using it, because it drains really well. The only reason I haven't repotted it yet is because I'm waiting for him to recover a little more from the drive home.
I would skip the potting soil for the Juniper, in fact I probably would not have used it for the Maple either, but that's water under the dam. By incorporating such small particles into the carefully prepared bonsai mix you have, at least partially, negated the benefits of the coarse mix. Not as bad for the Maple but inappropriate for the Juniper. That's what I meant earlier when I mentioned the soil for that tree being less than stellar. When I mix my own medium I sift out the smaller particles.
How do you tell how old a tree is?
In this instance it is not age as much as size that is the issue. It is usually counterproductive to prune young/small material too soon as this only slows development of the trunk.

Norm

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Gnome wrote: Unless it is really root bound you can almost certainly hold out until next year. That does not address the issue of the poor quality of the soil though.
It sounds like I should repot it for more appropriate soil. It also sounds like I should do it asap to take advantage of the late spring we've been having. I can do it tomorrow evening if you think that's ok?

I used to work at Petsmart, both in the grooming salon and in the general pet care. One of the things they always enforced was to not make sudden changes - if you're going to change food, or water, then you do it gradually: 75/25 one week, 50/50 the next, 25/75 the next week, then go completely the new variety of whatever it is. This was the only reason I wasn't going to go completely to the new soil, but it sounds like that's not an issue. So I won't mix any of the potting soil in. :)

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Storm,

It's definitely a trade off. The risk of re-potting it now opposed to the risk of leaving it in poor soil. My Juniper started out as a nursery tree purchased in late May and I left it in that soil until the following spring. I probably would have re-potted it then but it was for a styling contest and with all the pruning I did I did not want to risk it.

I can't tell you what to do on this one. It's a young tree and if you lose it, it won't be the end of the world. As I said earlier I've taken chances like this before, sometimes they work out and sometimes they don't.

Norm



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