GeauxTiger
Newly Registered
Posts: 7
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 10:37 pm
Location: Youngsville, LA

Red wrigglers versus clay lawn?

Hi all...

First, let me apologize up front if this is the incorrect place to post this question. I did look around a bit first and this seemed like as good a place as any.

Let me give you a bit of background so that it may be easier to answer this question.

First...I live in South Louisiana. Zone 9. I put in a Palmetto St. Augustine grass about three years ago which has come in beautifully. This was a new lawn at a new build site. Before laying down the sod, I needed to even out the yard in the lowest spots. These places received mostly fill dirt, with a small percentage of top soil on the very top. The highest levels in the yard received no such treatment. The original soil under which all of these were added was VERY much clay. Couldn't tell you the PH as I've never had it tested. During the summer, I allow the grass to grow fairly high and cut it with a mulching mower and allow the very fine clippings to fall back into the lawn. The St. Aug is such a thick grower that it naturally chokes out most of the weeds. I've also done the typical fertilizer every quarter, etc. In terms of landscaping near the house, I built up the beds with a landscape mix nearly 18" in most places and the plants nearest the house are growing mostly in that.

So anyway...the question. I've recently done a small bit of research on composting with red wriggler worms, and what a benefit they can be to the garden...which is great! I'll definitely be adding a bunch to the raised beds. But...what about the lawn? With the lawn resting mostly on a clay bed, could the worms get a foothold (so to speak) going there, and would they over time really make an impact on the quality of the soil? The grass seems to be doing fine, but I'm sure it would benefit from the added Earth worm activity...as would the newly planted trees in the yard.

If they could greatly benefit the lawn, I'd be more than willing to start raising them with the sole purpose of putting them into the lawn. But if the poor little fellas are not going to be able to penetrate the clay and simply lie in the grass waiting for birds to come eat them, I'll pass. Any advice you folks would have on this subject would be most appreciated. Thanks in advance.

User avatar
imagardener2
Senior Member
Posts: 220
Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2008 12:55 am
Location: Three Rivers, TX

Hello Youngsville!

I know your area well as I've done lots work around Broussard - Cameron - Houma - Fourchon - Venice - etc

Wish I knew the answer to your question for sure. I have tons of earthworms in my containers and I know they go through hole in the bottom and into my yard in the winter or if the soil get too dry in the pot.

My uneducated thoughts are that if you make an area or areas in your yard that are hospitable (shade, moist, has food they like [egg shell, coffee grounds, etc]) I don't see why they wouldn't take hold in those areas and then venture out from there.

I have a garden on the NW corner of my yard. In the summer it's clay soil can be beastly hot and terribly hard when dry. This winter as I was deep digging it for a winter garden I found pockets of earthworms throughout. My guess is they were transplanted there via containers of plants that were held for a time in my backyard. But since I haven't worked that garden in over a year due to illness they would have had to have been there a while.

I hope this helps some.

opabinia51
Super Green Thumb
Posts: 4659
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 5:58 pm
Location: Victoria, BC

https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1782


Try reading this first of all.

Red Wrigglers are great but don't just add red wrigglers to your soil. Add something for them to work with like mulched leaves and an accompnanying green like manure, coffee grounds, blood meal, grass clippings and so on.

This would work well for your beds but for you lawn I would use the red wrigglers and use the information contained in the thread posted above. You can add sifted compost and sprinkle small amound mulched leaves on your lawn to try to ammend the clay.

Red Wrigglers will not just automatically imrove you clay soil, you will have to add organics to it and some sand wouldn't hurt either.

GeauxTiger
Newly Registered
Posts: 7
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 10:37 pm
Location: Youngsville, LA

Thanks for the info and link.

I don't currently have a compost pile or composter. Truth is, other than the grass clippings I'd obtain in the spring and summer months, I don't really have a ton of lawn materials to get a nice size compost pile going. Especially if I'm to leave mulched clippings on the lawn to begin with. I have clippings of plants and things from time to time, but it wouldn;t seem like enough...but maybe I'm wrong. And since it's a new property, I only have a few still quite young tress on it which as of yet don;t really produce enough leaves to sustain a compost pile on their own.

I like the idea of having readily available compost to spread out into the lawn...I'm just not sure the best way to go about getting it started. Any suggestions here would also be helpful.

As for the sand...yes, that's on the "Things to do..." list. Should be having 5+ yards of sand delivered this weekend in fact. I'm also going to be adding the same landscape soil material I used for the beds to add some organics.

But from the sounds of it, improving the composition of the soil PRIOR to adding worms seems like the way to go. Once it becomes something a little more hospitable, maybe I'll begin to find a few more worms out there. At that point, I might try and add some more.

Oh...and one more thing mentioned in the link. Aeration. Never done that with my lawn, and given the high clay content that seems like a good idea. How would I go about doing that? Was this discussed somewhere else on this forum? Thanks!

opabinia51
Super Green Thumb
Posts: 4659
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 5:58 pm
Location: Victoria, BC

The only way to ammend clay in your soil is to add organic matter, this doesn't necessary have to be compost. You can add compostables, grass clipping would be a start but, you can add mulched leaves as well, (A very thin layer over your lawn with grass clippings as a green). Do this in winter.

One phrase that you will hear in organic circles is: "Add organic matter" an that pretty much solves everything. There are a myriad of different techniques out there but, add organic matter. Your lawn will be difficult to work with give the fact that it is a lawn but, if you have beds that need ammending, trench composting will help immensely as will sheet composting. And your lawn will benefit from the sheet compost as well.

And my parents place where I have been doing some sheet composting in their beds for a few years now, the lawn adjacent to the sheet composted bed is greener, grows better and higher and is just htat much healthier. And their soil was basically just clay.

Slowly it is getting nicer in the beds but, the plants in their beds are that much healthier now.

I'm lucky because the soil in my main garden is sand based which is very easy to ammend. Same priniciple, add organic matter.

Oh and don't use a rotatiller, these break things up to quickly and destroy soil structure which is your ultimate goal

GeauxTiger
Newly Registered
Posts: 7
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 10:37 pm
Location: Youngsville, LA

Wow...all good ideas. A year or so ago I purchased something called Aerify. Made by a company called Nature's Lawn. It's basically a "water it in" type additive whose sole purpose is to help break up compacted soils...sort of an alternative to mechanical aeration. I used it, but considering how clay based the yard was, I didn't really see any significant results.

Are you guys familiar with this or other similar products? Do they seem to help in the long run, or is this just a waste of time and money? I'd be willing to conue with this regimen if I thought it was definitely helping.

Link to this product below.

https://ssl.cgicafe.com/clients/natures ... aerify.php

User avatar
CharlieK
Senior Member
Posts: 163
Joined: Sat May 17, 2008 4:32 am
Location: Covington, LA USA

I know this is an old thread but I live in Louisiana and have a clay lawn. I just want to say that the above posters are right about ammending the soil composition with organic material over time. The most important thing I have learned thus far on this site is that there are many simple alternatives to expensive, unrecognizable and potentially harmful chemicals. I am a novice but I wouldn't touch that "liquid spray clay conditioner".

Good luck to you! Go Tigers!!!!! :D

Oak Cliff Earth Day
Newly Registered
Posts: 1
Joined: Fri Aug 08, 2008 5:34 pm
Location: Dallas TX

Red wrigglers are great for cool (not hot) compost piles. They rarely live in soil. Their home in nature is the wet leaves on the forest floor. But in the piles of leaves, not the ground. I think earthworms would be great to add to your soil, but red wrigglers would NOT be the species to use. Do the research and choose a species that flourishes in actual soil.

Also, a great soil amendment that is gaining in popularity is expanded shale. The shale is heated to a high temperature. As I understand it, it more or less puffs up like popcorn. It is these microscopic air pockets that hold oxygen and moisture in the soil that improve the root zone so much. I have helped other volunteers add expanded shale to the flower beds at the parks in Dallas and have just today bought some for my own garden, also heavy clay. Something else to research and make up your own mind on. I'm hoping it helps my clay problem.

TheLorax
Greener Thumb
Posts: 1416
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 9:40 pm
Location: US

Red wrigglers are great for cool (not hot) compost piles. They rarely live in soil. Their home in nature is the wet leaves on the forest floor. But in the piles of leaves, not the ground.
The original poster is from the state of Louisiana. That would be on the continent of North America.

The scientific name for red wrigglers is Eisenia foetida. Their home in nature is on the continent of Europe where they are found occurring naturally in organic rich ecosystems.

Best easy-on-the-brain explanation of what we have now learned is going on when non-native earthworms don't respect the boundaries of our gardens and begin reproducing and escaping to adjoining properties here-
https://www.wildflower.org/expert/show.php?id=954&frontpage=true

More information here-
https://www.dnr.state.mn.us/invasives/terrestrialanimals/earthworms/index.html
https://www.nrri.umn.edu/worms/
https://www.invasiveplants.net/default.asp
And from our US Dept of Agriculture comes this link to invasive earthworms-
https://www.invasivespeciesinfo.gov/animals/faq.shtml

Red wigglers are a non-native invasive species that are being accidentally introduced into new habitats across the US by gardeners. Please reconsider using red wigglers unless you're going to vermicompost with them under your kitchen sink. By all means introduce their castings to your gardens but not the actual worms even if some online vendor claims they aren't invasive. They are now documented as being invasive but those people have worms to sell. We've learned a lot about the ability of non-native worms to destroy natural ecosystems in the past few years but not nearly enough. More research is needed but money is needed for that and seems as if that's tough to come by these days. We do know enough to hopefully realize it isn't in our best interests to continue introducing them intentionally or unintentionally particularly since there are native earthworms available that pose no threats that could be used in our gardens. Sad reality is that red wigglers are an invasive species just like a Norway rat, an English House Sparrow, or a domestic cat. They all are now well documented as wreaking havoc on the continent of North America since their introductions.

it's hard unlearning some things. We've all been told since we were kids that earthworms were the greatest thing and right up there with hot bread right out of the oven. We've had it ingrained in us that all earthworms are great additions to any garden but the sad reality is that not all earthworms are created equal.

Sorry to rock your worlds. Best to go with CharlieK's recommendations of amending the soil with organic matter.

cynthia_h
Super Green Thumb
Posts: 7500
Joined: Tue May 06, 2008 7:02 pm
Location: El Cerrito, CA

Thx for the links, Lorax.

I read through the USDA discussion; unfortunately, it focused ONLY on Minnesota (hardwood forest in previously glaciated terrain) and did NOT give the names of the 15 species considered invasive in Minnesota.

The "wildflower" link said that, in southern states which did NOT experience glaciation (and Louisiana surely did not; the limit of glaciation was current Missouri/Kentucky), Eisenia foetida is not likely to be a problem, as it is not a soil dweller.

Personally, I screen all my compost and return any fugitive worms (and as many cocoons as possible) to the BioStack or the worm bins. I don't want to kill the composting worms AND I don't want them to compete with any true earthworms (Lucumbris terrestris or similar) already present in my soil.

BTW--for general knowledge--the primary habitat difference between L. terrestris and E. foetida is that the former makes permanent burrows underground; the latter lives in loose organic matter and does not make burrows.

FWIW; YMMV, etc.

Cynthia H.
USDA Zone 9, Sunset Zone 17

TheLorax
Greener Thumb
Posts: 1416
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 9:40 pm
Location: US

Real quick as I'm real tired but I need to know what you mean by "true earthworm" as pertains to Lumbricus terrestris before I reply-
I don't want them to compete with any true earthworms (Lucumbris terrestris or similar)

cynthia_h
Super Green Thumb
Posts: 7500
Joined: Tue May 06, 2008 7:02 pm
Location: El Cerrito, CA

Drive-by also:

"earthworm" L. terrestris => subterranean dweller; makes permanent burrows

"compost worm" E. foetida => litter dweller; cannot live in soil due to lack of nutrients (I.e., cannot eat soil)

Cynthia

TheLorax
Greener Thumb
Posts: 1416
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 9:40 pm
Location: US

The links I provided were nothing more than easy-read overviews of the general issues associated with non-native earthworm invasion biology. I should add that I happen to prefer Cindy Hale’s research so I'm definitely biased in linking to anything that is a result of her work product. You gotta admit her “Contain Those Crawlersâ€



Return to “Composting Forum”