is this a nice tree from yamadori????(well I think it is)
[img]https://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s151/tarian475/bonsai005.jpg[/img]
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opabinia51
- Super Green Thumb
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- Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 5:58 pm
- Location: Victoria, BC
Take a look at the different styles in our website, I would recomment trying to style your tree a little more by removing some of the branches and opening up the crown.
Also, I'm a little concerned looking at the trunk with the soil stains. This could be an open site for infection by soil pathogens. My recommendations to gentil wash the soil from the trunk with just plain water.
What do others think?
Also, I'm a little concerned looking at the trunk with the soil stains. This could be an open site for infection by soil pathogens. My recommendations to gentil wash the soil from the trunk with just plain water.
What do others think?
I would recomment trying to style your tree a little more by removing some of the branches and opening up the crown.
'Crown'...? Only mature trees [Which this is not] in bonsai have a 'crown', You refer to the 'apex'. To what end? lol- That is not styling- That's pruning.
You could easily wire any of those branches to open it up. As opposed to removing them. Though you will most likely be removing them anyway eventually.
[Also Opa if you should revisit this thread- [url=https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3057&highlight=akadama]Please do stop by the Akadama thread to answer those questions you are still thinking about...[/url]Since November
;)]Other issues need to be addressed first here Tarian, Soooo....
Let's slow down here for a moment...
This is a Yamadori? [A collected tree yes?] When did you collect it? Did you get a large mass of feeder roots? [Was the root system healthy?...] How long have you had it? We need alot of details here
Any idea of the type of pine it is? [Does it backbud? This is important to know before you go pruning off more foliage.]
Long before you worry about styling You need to insure it's survival from the stresses of being dug up. This usually requires a rest period of at least a year [Lot's of folks wait 3 or 5 years.] before the stresses of an initial styling can be placed on it.
A bit about pines:
https://www.bonsai4me.com/SpeciesGuide/Pinus.html
A bit about collecting By a World Class Bonsai artist
https://www.bonsai4me.com/AdvTech/ATcollectring%20trees%20from%20the%20wild%20W%20Pall.htm
https://www.bonsai4me.com/AdvTech/ATcollectring%20trees%20from%20the%20wild%20W%20Pall%20Part%20two.htm
https://www.bonsai4me.com/AdvTech/ATcollectring%20trees%20from%20the%20wild%20W%20Pall%20Part%20three.htm
I see it is already in a bonsai pot, Is this because you have already had it for a period of time and it is ready for a styling come spring.
OR...Has it just been dug up and plunked into a pot [Don't kill the messenger but...This is often fatal to the tree in question.]
I can also see that your soil looks much like garden soil which is entirely inappropriate for bonsai. [See the sticky about soil/repotting at the top of the forum.]
Here is a bit more about soil and watering:
https://www.bonsai4me.com/Basics/Basics_Soils.html
https://www.bonsai4me.com/Basics/Basics_Watering.html
As you will see from the Walter Pall piece, There is more to Yamadori than just digging them up and sticking them in pots...lol.
As far as styling goes I think trunk this may have potential as a smaller specimen. [provided it's nebari is suitable.]
After it gets into a training pot with some decent bonsai soil and recovers for a while you could start working on reduction while encouraging some backbudding with which new branches could be grown.
Were it mine It would be a ground up rebuild: [Again: Providing the nebari is suitable and it backbuds well]
After It had regained a robust vigor I would be doing a severe chop [Eliminating some branches and reducing the #1 back ] and starting over with the branches to try to hide the bit of reverse taper apparent there on the right below the current #1.
Here is where I would [eventually] chop it: [url=https://img466.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tarianyami2cw1.jpg][img]https://img466.imageshack.us/img466/4078/tarianyami2cw1.th.jpg[/img][/url]
It will take several years to build a new apex on this tree, The improvement could be dramatic.
I could have put a 'virtual' top on it but you may want to apply your own ideas.
Decide where you want to take it and make a plan to get it there.
I look forward to the answers to my questions.
good luck
ynot
Last edited by ynot on Wed Apr 18, 2007 4:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Gnome
- Super Green Thumb
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Tarian,
Ynot has raised some very good questions regarding collection time, roots and species so I won't go over them again. I too await some of the answers. As to identification, look closely at the needle bundles and see how many are grouped together. This will be a start toward a proper identification. The dark wet trunk troubles me as well but it is probably a function of improper soil, over-watering or both.
I hope this has not been recently collected out of season, as that certainly puts a lot of unnecessary stress on the tree, as does being forced into an undersized pot and being potted in what appears to be conventional potting soil. Let us know if we are making any incorrect assumptions.
I would not even consider any styling now, no pruning, candling, or wiring. If you have had it for a year now (again, more details please) a move to a training pot with proper medium might be appropriate. If it is new do nothing. If by chance it is VERY newly collected (days) I might consider a re-pot now in order to head off any potential problems with the roots. This is one of those situations where you are damned of you do and damned if you don't. Please read the stickies about re-potting and bonsai soils, which by the way are not usually soil at all, especially for Pines.
Pines are difficult, at least for me, and of the ones that I have collected most have died. Some because of over aggressive pruning too early, some I just don't know why. I have had success this past season with seedlings and I have some hope that I will have more luck with them than I have collected material. But I have not given up on collecting yet.
One technique that is used in growing pines (other species too) is the use of a sacrificial branch or several. They are low branches that are allowed to grow unpruned and are used only to thicken the trunk, after several years they are removed. The opposite approach can be used as well, allow the apex to grow unrestrained while developing low branches that will be a part of the final design, later the top is removed.
The one thing that is essential is getting some buds to break low on the trunk. If there are none present now (can't really tell from the pics) you will have to try to stimulate some to break. If you do not then your styling options are limited to what you now have. This is done by pruning (not removing) branches in an effort to promote new buds lower on the branches and hopefully on the trunk as well.
But before any of this can be attempted the tree must be healthy, well fed and outside in good light. I know that this is a lot to absorb in a few days, I will be working on these techniques in the coming years as well. In the meantime work on some deciduous trees, I see you also have an Elm, to keep the urge to "do something" in check. Get back to us with the particulars and we will try to help.
Norm
Ynot has raised some very good questions regarding collection time, roots and species so I won't go over them again. I too await some of the answers. As to identification, look closely at the needle bundles and see how many are grouped together. This will be a start toward a proper identification. The dark wet trunk troubles me as well but it is probably a function of improper soil, over-watering or both.
I hope this has not been recently collected out of season, as that certainly puts a lot of unnecessary stress on the tree, as does being forced into an undersized pot and being potted in what appears to be conventional potting soil. Let us know if we are making any incorrect assumptions.
I would not even consider any styling now, no pruning, candling, or wiring. If you have had it for a year now (again, more details please) a move to a training pot with proper medium might be appropriate. If it is new do nothing. If by chance it is VERY newly collected (days) I might consider a re-pot now in order to head off any potential problems with the roots. This is one of those situations where you are damned of you do and damned if you don't. Please read the stickies about re-potting and bonsai soils, which by the way are not usually soil at all, especially for Pines.
Pines are difficult, at least for me, and of the ones that I have collected most have died. Some because of over aggressive pruning too early, some I just don't know why. I have had success this past season with seedlings and I have some hope that I will have more luck with them than I have collected material. But I have not given up on collecting yet.
One technique that is used in growing pines (other species too) is the use of a sacrificial branch or several. They are low branches that are allowed to grow unpruned and are used only to thicken the trunk, after several years they are removed. The opposite approach can be used as well, allow the apex to grow unrestrained while developing low branches that will be a part of the final design, later the top is removed.
The one thing that is essential is getting some buds to break low on the trunk. If there are none present now (can't really tell from the pics) you will have to try to stimulate some to break. If you do not then your styling options are limited to what you now have. This is done by pruning (not removing) branches in an effort to promote new buds lower on the branches and hopefully on the trunk as well.
But before any of this can be attempted the tree must be healthy, well fed and outside in good light. I know that this is a lot to absorb in a few days, I will be working on these techniques in the coming years as well. In the meantime work on some deciduous trees, I see you also have an Elm, to keep the urge to "do something" in check. Get back to us with the particulars and we will try to help.
Norm
I repeat:
ynot
...........................................................................................................................................Was this one recently collected and root pruned and put in this little pot?ynot wrote:Tarian,
You noted that you recently collected these also?:shock:
Did you do much root pruning to get that spruce into the little pot?
ynot