Question about Coffee NOT GROUNDS
I was wondering if unused coffee, (not the grinds) I'm talkin liquid leftover coffee, is good or bad for plants. I know coffee grounds are good in compost or directly on the ground, but can't find anything about straight black coffee, no sugar or creme. I usually pour it on my roses, but haven't noticed much change. so is it good or bad or both?
Brewed coffee is mildly acidic so far as plants are concerned. (There are people, though, for whom it is anything but "mildly" acidic.)
Acid-loving plants like camellias, rhododendrons, and azaleas are the best choice for "sharing" brewed coffee. Roses probably don't mind, but I suspect they don't appreciate it as much as the other plants would. I've been known to pour left-over iced tea (yes, fellow Southroners, when the ice melts into the tea, that dilute stuff is undrinkable) onto my lemon tree in its container, too.
But my coffee is useless to my camellia bush; I put sugar and milk into the coffee. Poor camellia...
Cynthia H.
Sunset Zone 17, USDA Zone 9
Acid-loving plants like camellias, rhododendrons, and azaleas are the best choice for "sharing" brewed coffee. Roses probably don't mind, but I suspect they don't appreciate it as much as the other plants would. I've been known to pour left-over iced tea (yes, fellow Southroners, when the ice melts into the tea, that dilute stuff is undrinkable) onto my lemon tree in its container, too.
But my coffee is useless to my camellia bush; I put sugar and milk into the coffee. Poor camellia...
Cynthia H.
Sunset Zone 17, USDA Zone 9
I understand there is alot of nitrogen in coffee beans....
Don't know exactly, but with the roasting process it looses???? a part maybe a third of the nitrogen........then the brewing process it looses another portion of the N...maybe another third......Some of it probably evaporates in the brewing, but I'd think alot of it is in the coffee(liquid) itself.
I'd like to know what the experts know.
Don't know exactly, but with the roasting process it looses???? a part maybe a third of the nitrogen........then the brewing process it looses another portion of the N...maybe another third......Some of it probably evaporates in the brewing, but I'd think alot of it is in the coffee(liquid) itself.
I'd like to know what the experts know.
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The Helpful Gardener
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High in tannic acids, which can be a rich soil enhancement (it is what makes the Rio Negro a black river), but they are still acids. In my neck of the woods that is pretty useless as we start acidic, but in calecerous, base soils, it could be beneficial...
Has to be LOTS of trace minerals, and that roasty flavor means carbon has come into play...
I'm gonna find it...[url=https://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/Data/SR18/reports/sr18fg14.pdf]got it[/url]! you have to scroll a while, but there it is coffee madefrom grounds, with tap water...NDB14209...
Lots of ash, so no surprise the potassium is high... other than that it's a cypher, a null and void. A little phosphorus, but not much... 99.39% H2O...and no mention of nitrogen...
My guess is the nitrogen is volatized as the oils break down and a lot of that good coffee smell is wafting to you on the most prevalent gas in our atmosphere...
HG
Has to be LOTS of trace minerals, and that roasty flavor means carbon has come into play...
I'm gonna find it...[url=https://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/Data/SR18/reports/sr18fg14.pdf]got it[/url]! you have to scroll a while, but there it is coffee madefrom grounds, with tap water...NDB14209...
Lots of ash, so no surprise the potassium is high... other than that it's a cypher, a null and void. A little phosphorus, but not much... 99.39% H2O...and no mention of nitrogen...
My guess is the nitrogen is volatized as the oils break down and a lot of that good coffee smell is wafting to you on the most prevalent gas in our atmosphere...
HG
The (rather thorough) analysis of Coffee, Brewed from Grounds, with Tap Water is on page 223 of 536.
:bowing to HG: :gobsmacked: :applause:
Cynthia
:bowing to HG: :gobsmacked: :applause:
Cynthia
Last edited by cynthia_h on Sat May 23, 2009 12:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
Thanks HG,
That is different info than I've read in the past. Definately looks like no significant amounts of N in the coffe liquid.
Wouldn't there would be trace amounts of N in other compounds like the Caffiene. I assume that is not readily available to plants.
The tannins or tannic acids, what part do they play in the C and N release or availability. And at what level do they come into play with the microbe world?
Please enlighten?
That is different info than I've read in the past. Definately looks like no significant amounts of N in the coffe liquid.
Wouldn't there would be trace amounts of N in other compounds like the Caffiene. I assume that is not readily available to plants.
The tannins or tannic acids, what part do they play in the C and N release or availability. And at what level do they come into play with the microbe world?
Please enlighten?
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2C, there was no mention of nitrogen, and as this was an FDA test, I don't think they list nitrogen as a human dietary input... So let's not call it just yet...
Can't find squat except the grounds, and I don't think folks have a great idea about what is going on there either. Ther grounds are 2.28% nitrogen which is okay as an organic assay, but nothing to write home about. I think htey provide a good fungal and bacterial bed with high humates, and THERE is your nitrogen release once that food chain starts looping the poop... I am not sure the whole story is in the chemical assay, as much as the biological reaction...
Sorry missed the last bit last time; tannins are interesting in that they "soften" water and likely soil by excluding metals and heavier elements, salts etc.. They are a common component of many plants and when taken internally can exclude iron in humans, leading to anemia. They are being looked at as an antimicrobial and anti-fungal, which make me wonder why this makes such good compost? As for there place in the C/N cycle, here's a gallotannin (C76H52O46); as you can see this is a pretty high carbon element, so it seems this is one of the places plants store a lot of carbon... so a push toward the fungal side of the spectrum, I suspect...
HG
Can't find squat except the grounds, and I don't think folks have a great idea about what is going on there either. Ther grounds are 2.28% nitrogen which is okay as an organic assay, but nothing to write home about. I think htey provide a good fungal and bacterial bed with high humates, and THERE is your nitrogen release once that food chain starts looping the poop... I am not sure the whole story is in the chemical assay, as much as the biological reaction...
Sorry missed the last bit last time; tannins are interesting in that they "soften" water and likely soil by excluding metals and heavier elements, salts etc.. They are a common component of many plants and when taken internally can exclude iron in humans, leading to anemia. They are being looked at as an antimicrobial and anti-fungal, which make me wonder why this makes such good compost? As for there place in the C/N cycle, here's a gallotannin (C76H52O46); as you can see this is a pretty high carbon element, so it seems this is one of the places plants store a lot of carbon... so a push toward the fungal side of the spectrum, I suspect...
HG
I once read, green coffee beans were between 12% and 20% nitrogen. Someother. crack pot said they were up to 40% N. Which is outragious.
Of course the 12-20 could be a complete lie.
But, my accentric gardener side......and my cheap lazy wanting more for less side teamed up
I decided to believe this as there was little out there to refute the info. And besides I had read something even more amazing. But, always remembering that it was just black ink on white paper, no really it was black letters on a monitor.
Of course my decency side just wants to believe no one is out there with intent to mislead the people's need for accurate information.
I of course having a fallible human brain have since synthesized several information sources and as presented before, understand there is a lose of N with each heating of those green beans>roasted>boiling>used grounds.
Then there is the coffee liquid itself.
Now what is the real story?
Since I still think in terms of the old N-P-K, I am drawn to wanting to believe there are easy natural and free sources.
Please refrute all of this so I can find my way back on track in search of the real value of coffee and UCG.
Of course no matter what you tell me, there is the issue, that I have added about ONE TON++ of UCG this past fall/winter and have more worms than I have ever had time 5. I just can't explain that one away.
Of course the 12-20 could be a complete lie.
But, my accentric gardener side......and my cheap lazy wanting more for less side teamed up
I decided to believe this as there was little out there to refute the info. And besides I had read something even more amazing. But, always remembering that it was just black ink on white paper, no really it was black letters on a monitor.
Of course my decency side just wants to believe no one is out there with intent to mislead the people's need for accurate information.
I of course having a fallible human brain have since synthesized several information sources and as presented before, understand there is a lose of N with each heating of those green beans>roasted>boiling>used grounds.
Then there is the coffee liquid itself.
Now what is the real story?
Since I still think in terms of the old N-P-K, I am drawn to wanting to believe there are easy natural and free sources.
Please refrute all of this so I can find my way back on track in search of the real value of coffee and UCG.
Of course no matter what you tell me, there is the issue, that I have added about ONE TON++ of UCG this past fall/winter and have more worms than I have ever had time 5. I just can't explain that one away.
yuppupcs
Sorry to high jack your topic.
You have touched on an issue I have spent hours reading about this last 6 months. It is what has brought me to this Site and Forum.
These guys in here know a lot of stuff and can relate it to everyone from the beginner to the much more scientific.
I use to have to google the definition of half of what they are saying.
HG and several moderators are excellent at speaking information to us. Just good old folks who understand the science of this stuff and can give detailed responses. Cynthia the moderator also has a well rounded knowledge, and seems to be as well read as any one.(I'll call her book smart) And no Cynthia, I don't want to try to match you in the garden(I am sure your practical knowledge is well over my head), I am sure your's produces at least as well as mine. Just like Jefferson, I am a young gardener.
IMHO no to all creamers. Water coffee and sugar don't seem to be particularly bad for plants or the ground(they are all natural products).
HG posted on the 22nd...."got it"...... that will take you to an info page. It is scientific but doesn't tell the whole story. Hopefully one of these brighter than I folks will shed the light you desire.
Sorry to high jack your topic.
You have touched on an issue I have spent hours reading about this last 6 months. It is what has brought me to this Site and Forum.
These guys in here know a lot of stuff and can relate it to everyone from the beginner to the much more scientific.
I use to have to google the definition of half of what they are saying.
HG and several moderators are excellent at speaking information to us. Just good old folks who understand the science of this stuff and can give detailed responses. Cynthia the moderator also has a well rounded knowledge, and seems to be as well read as any one.(I'll call her book smart) And no Cynthia, I don't want to try to match you in the garden(I am sure your practical knowledge is well over my head), I am sure your's produces at least as well as mine. Just like Jefferson, I am a young gardener.
IMHO no to all creamers. Water coffee and sugar don't seem to be particularly bad for plants or the ground(they are all natural products).
HG posted on the 22nd...."got it"...... that will take you to an info page. It is scientific but doesn't tell the whole story. Hopefully one of these brighter than I folks will shed the light you desire.
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The Helpful Gardener
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Camellias, rhodies and azaleas...well coffee will certainly make for acidic, fungal soils, and that's what these guys like. SO I exect it would be better for them than roses....
But Yuppup, you are falling into the same trap as 2C, thinking it's all about nitrogen, when that really isn't the case. As I mentioned, 3/4 of the atmosphere surrounding any terrestrial plant is nitrogen, so why aren't they all growing like crazy? Why do we feel that all that we need to do is provide three elements and the plant grows, when in Nature nothing could be farther from the truth?
The true fertilization that Nature provides is about two things, predation and poop. Who are we feeding, and who are we feeding them to, and what will consume the waste streams? I am sure there is a fairly signicant nitrogen component to coffee, as there is a fairly large nitrogen component to anything with an amino acid (every living thing; we are told we are carbon based creatures, but like good compost it is all about the carbon to nitrogen ratio). The first crack at nitrogen in any living soil is bacteria, and that's a lot of mouths to feed, with a low carbon to nitrogen ratio. Bacteria will lock up nitrogen in a heart beat; THAT's why we like finished compost, as the lack of food sourcing means it is LESS bacterial than stuff that's still cooking (and consuming nitrogen).
To me the value for coffee, liquid, would be potassium (actually a better source that I would have thought) and tannic acids. As I showed earlier, tannins can be incredibly high in carbon, and high carbon sourcing always supports fungal side. As acidic soils tend towards fungal side, and shrubs like fungal, it's a good mix for your acid loving shrubs. Maybe not so much for my vegetable garden in our acidic New England soil, which likes a balanced, even sweeter pH.
Grounds adds a whole different component in as we have now added in the phospholipids and other non-solubilized goodies from the brewing. This is humus on the hoof, and very high carbon and like worms are drawn to paper, they are drawn to the grounds (which due to it's high humic nature is a perfect home for all the soil biologies). Worms don't really eat dirt; that's waste stream to them. They are digesting the living breathing part of the soil, a teeming ecosystem no less complex than a rainforest (until you spray chemicals on it, anyway).
2C, there is your free nitrogen; biology. Proteins and amino acids just rife with the stuff. Bloom your bacteria, which starts a bloom of protozoa, and nematodes and shredder mites and springtails and worms, and the poop loop get pretty signicant pretty quickly. And that's just the faunal side, the fungal net is just as significant in how plants get nutrition.You are harnessing all of that with the kind of rich soil addition you make with coffee grounds. So don't sweat it, Nature works whether you understand it or not. A lot of worms are hardly to be argued with. And if like Yuppup all this chemistry stuff makes your head hurt, start to think about what you have seen make plants really happy in Nature, and replicate that. It is nearly fool-proof, while our continuing experiment with chemicals is merely foolish...
HG
But Yuppup, you are falling into the same trap as 2C, thinking it's all about nitrogen, when that really isn't the case. As I mentioned, 3/4 of the atmosphere surrounding any terrestrial plant is nitrogen, so why aren't they all growing like crazy? Why do we feel that all that we need to do is provide three elements and the plant grows, when in Nature nothing could be farther from the truth?
The true fertilization that Nature provides is about two things, predation and poop. Who are we feeding, and who are we feeding them to, and what will consume the waste streams? I am sure there is a fairly signicant nitrogen component to coffee, as there is a fairly large nitrogen component to anything with an amino acid (every living thing; we are told we are carbon based creatures, but like good compost it is all about the carbon to nitrogen ratio). The first crack at nitrogen in any living soil is bacteria, and that's a lot of mouths to feed, with a low carbon to nitrogen ratio. Bacteria will lock up nitrogen in a heart beat; THAT's why we like finished compost, as the lack of food sourcing means it is LESS bacterial than stuff that's still cooking (and consuming nitrogen).
To me the value for coffee, liquid, would be potassium (actually a better source that I would have thought) and tannic acids. As I showed earlier, tannins can be incredibly high in carbon, and high carbon sourcing always supports fungal side. As acidic soils tend towards fungal side, and shrubs like fungal, it's a good mix for your acid loving shrubs. Maybe not so much for my vegetable garden in our acidic New England soil, which likes a balanced, even sweeter pH.
Grounds adds a whole different component in as we have now added in the phospholipids and other non-solubilized goodies from the brewing. This is humus on the hoof, and very high carbon and like worms are drawn to paper, they are drawn to the grounds (which due to it's high humic nature is a perfect home for all the soil biologies). Worms don't really eat dirt; that's waste stream to them. They are digesting the living breathing part of the soil, a teeming ecosystem no less complex than a rainforest (until you spray chemicals on it, anyway).
2C, there is your free nitrogen; biology. Proteins and amino acids just rife with the stuff. Bloom your bacteria, which starts a bloom of protozoa, and nematodes and shredder mites and springtails and worms, and the poop loop get pretty signicant pretty quickly. And that's just the faunal side, the fungal net is just as significant in how plants get nutrition.You are harnessing all of that with the kind of rich soil addition you make with coffee grounds. So don't sweat it, Nature works whether you understand it or not. A lot of worms are hardly to be argued with. And if like Yuppup all this chemistry stuff makes your head hurt, start to think about what you have seen make plants really happy in Nature, and replicate that. It is nearly fool-proof, while our continuing experiment with chemicals is merely foolish...
HG
Again many thanks to all those whom are much smarter than I. You have brought me a long way from my garden/soil infancy to wherever I am now??? I continue to read everyones posts and go online for additional info sources(not always a good thing).
Last year I was still adding NPK although I have been doing organic(inadvertantly) for decades. Well adding(what most people call) an extreme amount of OM to the soil every year. And have always enjoyed digging deep into the soil to amend with whatever I have(OM).
Quitting NPK maybe relatively easy, because I am cheap and if I can get away with not spend $, I will try anything.
Now I've got questions to continue to shed light on my lack of understanding(sorry I am a bit slow sometimes).
I have a rudamentary understanding of the poop loop.
{To me the value for coffee, liquid, would be potassium (actually a better source that I would have thought) and tannic acids. As I showed earlier, tannins can be incredibly high in carbon, and high carbon sourcing always supports fungal side. As acidic soils tend towards fungal side, and shrubs like fungal, it's a good mix for your acid loving shrubs. Maybe not so much for my vegetable garden in our acidic New England soil, which likes a balanced, even sweeter pH.
Grounds adds a whole different component in as we have now added in the phospholipids and other non-solubilized goodies from the brewing. This is humus on the hoof, and very high carbon and like worms are drawn to paper, they are drawn to the grounds (which due to it's high humic nature is a perfect home for all the soil biologies). Worms don't really eat dirt; that's waste stream to them. They are digesting the living breathing part of the soil, a teeming ecosystem no less complex than a rainforest (until you spray chemicals on it, anyway). }
Please can you add to what is the importance of; Potassium, Tannic acid/tannis, Phospholipids and other non-solubilized goodiesfrom the brewing?, humus.
Also:
What does the electrical charge of the ions have to do with nutrient uptake or whatever else is going on under the soil? What are we supposed to be doing about it?
And:
Bean leaf beetle..really bad this year. Will I actually be able to not use Sevin like the neighbor and a couple of friends. I rarely worry about them, I let them eat till their hearts content and I still get tons of beans(a favorite). I am trying to resist the urge of using the chemicals. I am just not there yet on the whole soap stuff. Other than beer for slugs(which I think the UCG are helping) and picking or squishing bugs, I have only done the chemicals in the past.
It is truely enjoyable to learn all that is being imparted and again thank you. I would love to go Organic, but 40+ years and growing up in farm country(watching commercial spraying) and chasing the DDT fogger trucks as a kid....it is hard to change.
Last year I was still adding NPK although I have been doing organic(inadvertantly) for decades. Well adding(what most people call) an extreme amount of OM to the soil every year. And have always enjoyed digging deep into the soil to amend with whatever I have(OM).
Quitting NPK maybe relatively easy, because I am cheap and if I can get away with not spend $, I will try anything.
Now I've got questions to continue to shed light on my lack of understanding(sorry I am a bit slow sometimes).
I have a rudamentary understanding of the poop loop.
{To me the value for coffee, liquid, would be potassium (actually a better source that I would have thought) and tannic acids. As I showed earlier, tannins can be incredibly high in carbon, and high carbon sourcing always supports fungal side. As acidic soils tend towards fungal side, and shrubs like fungal, it's a good mix for your acid loving shrubs. Maybe not so much for my vegetable garden in our acidic New England soil, which likes a balanced, even sweeter pH.
Grounds adds a whole different component in as we have now added in the phospholipids and other non-solubilized goodies from the brewing. This is humus on the hoof, and very high carbon and like worms are drawn to paper, they are drawn to the grounds (which due to it's high humic nature is a perfect home for all the soil biologies). Worms don't really eat dirt; that's waste stream to them. They are digesting the living breathing part of the soil, a teeming ecosystem no less complex than a rainforest (until you spray chemicals on it, anyway). }
Please can you add to what is the importance of; Potassium, Tannic acid/tannis, Phospholipids and other non-solubilized goodiesfrom the brewing?, humus.
Also:
What does the electrical charge of the ions have to do with nutrient uptake or whatever else is going on under the soil? What are we supposed to be doing about it?
And:
Bean leaf beetle..really bad this year. Will I actually be able to not use Sevin like the neighbor and a couple of friends. I rarely worry about them, I let them eat till their hearts content and I still get tons of beans(a favorite). I am trying to resist the urge of using the chemicals. I am just not there yet on the whole soap stuff. Other than beer for slugs(which I think the UCG are helping) and picking or squishing bugs, I have only done the chemicals in the past.
It is truely enjoyable to learn all that is being imparted and again thank you. I would love to go Organic, but 40+ years and growing up in farm country(watching commercial spraying) and chasing the DDT fogger trucks as a kid....it is hard to change.
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The Helpful Gardener
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Hey 2C!
I am glad you are digging on the organic info (not everyone does
). Not usre I have all the info you requested, but I'll do my best...
Well, [url=https://www.extension.umn.edu/distribution/cropsystems/DC6794.html]potassium[/url] is easy; that's the K in NPK. PLants gotta have it for hardiness, protein production (growing) and fruit sets...
Tannins I talked about some already; not so much a nutrient as a soil conditioner (it is what makes blackwater acidic and SOFT; neutralizes harsh alkali elements)...
Phospholipids are important to all living things as the way they are electrically charged only allows for passage in one direction; this is how every living thing sets up permeable membranes across cell walls, I.e., how cells maintain turgidity. The water comes in but it can't back out the same way... Any plant that sheds water off it's leaves, like broccoli, has a high phospholipid content. Why it is important in soil is in the name; phospho is phosphorus, which is notoriously soluble in water (causal agent for freshwater alagal blooms). But when we store it in biology, it stays put until released in smaller, usable quantities...
Bean leaf beetle? Several ways to go here. My friend Lisa doesn't like to spray anything (she's cheap too) just stalks the garden every morning before work and after and swears she never gets anything bad enough to warrant spraying. She's the one that started me on organics so she's been doing this longer than me, and you're darn tootin' old habits die hard, I want to do something myself other than harvesting insects... You could go after the larva with nematodes or [url=https://filebox.vt.edu/cals/cses/chagedor/btprimer.html]Bacillus thuringiensis var. san diego and Bacillus thuringiensis var. tenebrionis[/url], or go after adults with neem and/or spinosad. I am very pleased with the latter; used it on cucumber and squash beetles last year with good effect (accelerates their molting cycle to the point that feeding stops almost immediately, and the sort of molt themselves to death). HARMLESS to anything else...when we work INSIDE natural systems we come up with good ideas and safe results. When we go to outside agencies (chemicals) we invariably disrupt more than we mean to, usually to a bad end...
HG
I am glad you are digging on the organic info (not everyone does
). Not usre I have all the info you requested, but I'll do my best...Well, [url=https://www.extension.umn.edu/distribution/cropsystems/DC6794.html]potassium[/url] is easy; that's the K in NPK. PLants gotta have it for hardiness, protein production (growing) and fruit sets...
Tannins I talked about some already; not so much a nutrient as a soil conditioner (it is what makes blackwater acidic and SOFT; neutralizes harsh alkali elements)...
Phospholipids are important to all living things as the way they are electrically charged only allows for passage in one direction; this is how every living thing sets up permeable membranes across cell walls, I.e., how cells maintain turgidity. The water comes in but it can't back out the same way... Any plant that sheds water off it's leaves, like broccoli, has a high phospholipid content. Why it is important in soil is in the name; phospho is phosphorus, which is notoriously soluble in water (causal agent for freshwater alagal blooms). But when we store it in biology, it stays put until released in smaller, usable quantities...
Bean leaf beetle? Several ways to go here. My friend Lisa doesn't like to spray anything (she's cheap too) just stalks the garden every morning before work and after and swears she never gets anything bad enough to warrant spraying. She's the one that started me on organics so she's been doing this longer than me, and you're darn tootin' old habits die hard, I want to do something myself other than harvesting insects... You could go after the larva with nematodes or [url=https://filebox.vt.edu/cals/cses/chagedor/btprimer.html]Bacillus thuringiensis var. san diego and Bacillus thuringiensis var. tenebrionis[/url], or go after adults with neem and/or spinosad. I am very pleased with the latter; used it on cucumber and squash beetles last year with good effect (accelerates their molting cycle to the point that feeding stops almost immediately, and the sort of molt themselves to death). HARMLESS to anything else...when we work INSIDE natural systems we come up with good ideas and safe results. When we go to outside agencies (chemicals) we invariably disrupt more than we mean to, usually to a bad end...
HG