My Forest Garden

[Ozark Lady]

Okay, clearing is well under way.

I am trying to explain to my husband, that we are just going to plant as is, and not worry about the roots.

My suggestion is: Get the post hole digger, and dig out holes, then fill them half full of compost, and plant. I know that I will need to add alot of manure and nutrients.

Come on all you who understand roots in the soil, and give me some guidance here. I can't burn in this county, so I will have to make do with wood ashes from my wood burner, which I saved all winter in bags!

[img]https://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww281/Ozark_Lady/100_2452_phixr.jpg[/img]

Other than fencing, and a bit of more cutting out some hickories, it is ready to plant. What do you think? What is step two?

[Toil]

smother!

Why dig? it is so much easier to mow and smother. plant right on top of cardboard.

[Ozark Lady]

I have transplants, and they won't sit on top of cardboard! Mow? I don't own a mower. Smother could be done, especially with leaves, maybe some hay mixed with it.

I have to dig at least the depth of the roots! This will be predominantly nightshade plants.

I have my doubts that a root crop or corn would stand a chance here.

[soil]

do you plan on growing a food forest. or just a garden in a forest? what do you want to grow? resources you have possibly?

[Toil]

I have transplants, and they won't sit on top of cardboard! Mow? I don't own a mower. Smother could be done, especially with leaves, maybe some hay mixed with it.

I have to dig at least the depth of the roots! This will be predominantly nightshade plants.

I have my doubts that a root crop or corn would stand a chance here.

what grows there now again?

when I say mow, it doesn't have to mean using a mower. There was definitely mowing before mowers! How about a big ole scythe? handy on halloween.

but if you are transplanting you gotta do watcha gotta do I guess.

[Ozark Lady]

He did use the hand scythe, perhaps this photo was before he did! Oops! He did clear alot more after I took that photo, but it hasn't uploaded yet ready for posting.

That is my future vegetable garden, gradually, I hope to have all the trees gone, except in the fencerow. It is level, which is something the present one is not! Since the present one is on a south hill, it will have excellent drainage for an orchard and vineyard.

What is growing there now? Lots of May Apples, trees, young trees, lots of dead trees, stumps, logs, and weeds of all kinds. Whatever is normally growing in a hardwood forest is there.

In most cases, folks would bring a dozer in, and simply remove the stumps, and roots, but, I would like to not do something that invasive to the soil there. It is rich, deep, beautiful black leaf mold for soil there.

In this part of the Ozarks, if I don't stay busy with the nippers cutting out trees, and brush, or have my goats there, I will grow forest again.

Just in clearing leaves off the beds in the old garden, I found 6 baby oak trees, that are being gathered up to send to a friend who wants oak trees. It is a constant battle to keep the trees from growing back!

I do not own a mower, because I have no grass to mow! I have baby trees to cut out. And lots of rocks! I have planted grass over and over, and it only lasts one season then it is gone, no matter what kind I try to grow. It is finally growing in the garden paths, but not alot still.

[Toil]

so basically you already mowed - reaper style.

I think this is really neat. You are basically trying to push the system backwards from forest. Which explains why burning works.

But you need to be more subtle... cool!

[applestar]

I think you need to read Bill Mollison -- the Australian permaculture guru. I know you can get ebooks, but I don't have the links handy right now. Unlike Masanobu Fukuoka's Japanese model, where most of the land has already been "tamed" BM offers a lot of insights to re-claiming holdings from the "outback".

One example I remember involved pigs and cattle to handle the trampling and rooting. I'm guessing your immediately available first step would be to fence your goats there for a while.

[Ozark Lady]

You mean put the goats there for one day, once it is fenced! Ha ha, honest there is only 4 nannies and they have 2-3 acres, when we fenced it and put them on it, last fall, it was overgrown jungle, and all the grass that washed away, was at the bottom of the hill, very lush and green.

I am back to buying hay to feed the goats, because it won't support them, and we have been dragging all tree tops and brush that is green to the goats on a daily basis! Their pasture looks like a city park! Except I need to go through and drop the dead treelings!

I am considering leash training for them, with a halter, so I can walk them to where ever I need cleared! ha ha. They are big pets, but they want to eat, what I don't want them to eat!

Clearing it is not the issue, that is easy, with my four footed critters, and the geese, which by the way, geese eat pasture! The goats eat large brush and geese eat smaller stuff.

What I am wondering is what is needed to amend the soil with, when I know those roots are under there, breaking down slowly. I suppose they deplete nitrogen? With the leaves it should be good to go in phosphorus, and the acid level will be high, so the wood ashes will level that somewhat.

I suggested lasagne gardening, but I would need holes in the cardboard?
Or pile enough soil on the top to support the roots. Some of the tomatoes going there are nearly a foot tall. I am putting the largest ones in containers in the current garden, and working my way to the smaller plants for there, but what might I need to consider here?

I will see if I can find anything about the Australian guy. Thanks Apple, for suggesting my checking him out. I might also need to research Sepp Holzer.

[soil]

if your going to cut down some of those trees, definitely save the long pieces and use it for something. we make trellising and fencing with our trees and bamboo. you can use them to create small raised beds as well.

step two I would suggest mulch.

[gixxerific]

Don't forget that since it is forest it will more than likely be a more fungal ground which veggies are not as fond of. Get the bacterial growth back up without destroying the fungality (is that a word? ).

Sorry I'm no expert on this so I can't give step by step instructions, and hopefully I'm right in the first place. But something to think about.

I totally agree with soil's recommendation of reusing the timber you cut down for fencing or borders. I wish I would have thought about this last year we did a house that had a ton of perfect 4 inch or so cedars laying down. they would have made a great fence or raised bed. I did however bring some home for firewood. But I could have made a hell of a fence or something with them mass of others.

[Ozark Lady]

We have already marked the black locust for reuse. It stinks when you burn it. But it lasts forever as fence posts, or as bed rails in gardens.

I think we are considering laying out the rows with the black locust as rails, and hauling in topsoil, which I will amend with 'compost' from the barn lot. And just using the post hole diggers to go as deep as possible, some areas will be deeper than others, depending on the roots.

[Gary350]

Forest soil is class A soil as I recall from my college class I took 40 years ago. It is 100s of years of compost material from trees and other plants. The soil has a lot of neutrience but it is locked up and can't be used by new plants. It has been too long since I took that class I seen to recall lime will unlock the neutrience.

My grandmother use too keep geese in the strawberry patch because they will eat anything green but will not eat strawberry plants.

People in Tennessee use goats to clean the land. Goats will eat anything including the bark on living trees.

I have cleared places like that with a shovel and rake when I was young and had lots of go power. I think the idea of digging holes for plants is the best idea just let the other stuff grow but keep it under control.

[Ozark Lady]

You are right Gary, the goats have barked all trees that were young enough that they could get the bark to peel.
That is the treelings, that I need to cut out. It looks bad with dead trees sticking up, but it was a jungle before, so not as bad.

Problem is: It isn't fenced, and the goats can't roam free, they would eat what I don't want eaten, and they could get on the highway which is not good. I need to get them a harness and tie them out there. Goats have difficulty chewing their cud if they are tied with a collar, I know folks do it, but it can be an issue. Leash training time!

[ronbre]

I agree, with the leash for the goats..let them eat everything that they can and go behind them with some mulch and plant and mulch mulch mulch..

on the email I sent you a link to the online book by Manasobu Fukoka..but if you missed it here it is..a great read

https://web.archive.org/web/20060713221719/www.fukuokafarmingol.info/fover.html

save a buck and read it online..he did a very similar thing to what you are doing..but in Japan and planting rice, grains, citrus and vegetables.

[Ozark Lady]

Thanks, I will certainly read it.

I know I have heard how he did some marvelous things with his gardening. I can surely learn alot from him. And what better way to spend a rainy day, when all I can do is quick weeding between showers! And dream of what might be! And bug everyone here... I bet they will be glad I go read awhile! ha ha

[Ozark Lady]

Okay, the forest garden is started. We simply dug holes and transplanted:

[img]https://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww281/Ozark_Lady/000_0243_phixr.jpg[/img]

Oh and look what is growing if I face the opposite direction from the above photo:
[img]https://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww281/Ozark_Lady/000_0239_phixr.jpg[/img]

[img]https://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww281/Ozark_Lady/000_0240_phixr.jpg[/img]

I noticed mottling on some of the MayApples and got to looking, and gee they mottle as they fruit, I never noticed that before.

We are totally out of homemade cloches, with the forest plants. Oh well, in two or three days, they will be available once again!

[The Helpful Gardener]

Woodland soil smothered with leaves...gonna be WAY fungal, maybe TOO fungal...
Use lots of straw and bedding and manures as mulch, urine, fish, whatever higher nitrogen stuff you can get on here. I am concerned about nutrient locking with all that carbon...

HG

[ronbre]

Mary you have sure been busy, that looks very promising, and the Mayapples are gorgeous, I kinda love the mottling even if it is some sort of defect (I guess most variegations are considered defects anyway)

I will choose colored or variegated foliage whenever I buy something if there is a choice, I just ordered two variegated elderberries from that site I sent you a link for. ONe has a golden variegation and the other white.

I already have one black elderberry.

I am a sucker for foliage colors. Oh and shapes too.

[Ozark Lady]

Not all May Apples are proceding at the same rate, I found some that beginning to ripen:

[img]https://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww281/Ozark_Lady/000_0248_phixr.jpg[/img]

I cut one open to show the inside, the seeds are not ripe yet as you can see. And I tasted one, it has the texture of an apple, but is very bitter, now I remember why I don't like them to eat! And I do like green apples.

[img]https://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww281/Ozark_Lady/000_0255_phixr.jpg[/img]

Look how interesting, the seed part separates, with no force at all.

[The Helpful Gardener]

Yeah, eating them before they are fully ripe is [url=https://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1464860/wild_edibles_are_mayapples_toxic.html]not recommended[/url]...

HG

[Ozark Lady]

Not ripe till August? By August there won't be anything left of May Apples but the underground roots!

But that article is talking about east of the Mississippi, and like all things there are variables.

I wonder if it gets too hot here, and destroys them before they ever get ripe? Hmmm... food for thought.

[gixxerific]

I have always been told not to eat mayapples. They are everywhere around me. We use them to signal mushroom hunting season.

[Ozark Lady]

Anyone wonder what ever happened with my forest garden?
Well, there are now two!
I love it, I haven't fed, nor sprayed, no mulch, have weeded a couple times and watered it twice due to drought. I have weeded, sprayed, and watered the main garden continuously. The forest is 1,000% better garden!

But, I am impressed! I will definitely do this again. Just dig a hole plant and go... no upkeep, well, a bit of weeding and watering, but how hard is that. 2 times in over 2 months?


[img]https://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww281/Ozark_Lady/100_2707_phixr.jpg[/img]

[img]https://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww281/Ozark_Lady/100_2709_phixr.jpg[/img]

[img]https://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww281/Ozark_Lady/100_2710_phixr.jpg[/img]

No aphids underneath either:
[img]https://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww281/Ozark_Lady/100_2711_phixr.jpg[/img]

The plants are now large enough to plant cantaloupe and watermelons under them.
In case you don't recognize these, they are tobacco, a member of the nightshade family, so if they do this well here, I bet tomatoes, peppers, eggplant, and potatoes will do likewise.

I am sold on no till, forest gardening!

[soil]

beautiful! I love my forest garden. its always throwing out surprises for me to learn and eat.

[applestar]

Mother Nature's showing us HOW it's done!
Looking good Ozark Lady!

[Ozark Lady]

Thank you.
I kept meaning to fertilize, manure, mulch, all the "necessary" stuff, and just had to keep putting in so much time in the main garden, that, I would look at both and decide on priorities, and the forest never needed much.

To be honest the main garden would have needed less if I had not put in alot of containers that need constant attention. The beds aren't the main thing keeping me in that garden.

I am impressed with my neglected forest garden.

[soil]

forest gardens thrive on neglect

[ronbre]

my food forests are really doing good too..even the baby trees are taking off..but they'll be years before they are large enough to bear I guess.

we finally got some rain but still have a bad drought going here in Mich

[The Helpful Gardener]

this is gardening like the woodland tribes used to do it; cut the trees and burn in place, plant your crop and keep off the weeds you can't eat...

We need to learn to garden simply and in concert with nature again. Thanks OL, for showing the way...

S

[Ozark Lady]

I got hit by bugs but the Bt spraying is working, and they are no longer munching, however the holes remain.

This shows what the tobacco in the forest garden is now looking like, it is up to my nose, so roughly 5' + which is about average for properly grown burley, which this is burley, but not raised "properly" with all the fertilizers and chemicals that are normally put on tobacco. It will grow about another month. And then be ready to harvest, I am really impressed! The Turkish growing here is in bloom, I thought I got a photo of it, but didn't find one when I downloaded the camera...

[img]https://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww281/Ozark_Lady/100_2774_phixr.jpg[/img]

The bag garden didn't do so well, the tobacco there is only up to my shoulder, but it is blooming, so I will soon have a nice flower show and lots of fragrance, this is an oriental/burley cross.

[img]https://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww281/Ozark_Lady/100_2768_phixr.jpg[/img]

I won't do the bag garden again, unless it is my only choice, it was too difficult to keep watered!

[Ozark Lady]

Drought has hit hard.
We went checking out yard sales and farmers markets yesterday, and lots of gardens are totally dried up, even in town.

I asked one farmer at the market his secret of a good garden, even in drought... his answer: prayer. He does not mulch, fertilize, nor even water... He said he just has good dirt, and it just produces. Wow!

The forest garden has survived, I am sure it would have done much better with adequate water.

This photo was at noon, and it was after almost a week of not watering it at all. Yes, it will get watered, as soon as, the temps drop just a little bit.
[img]https://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww281/Ozark_Lady/100_2815_phixr.jpg[/img]

I saw new holes in leaves and was looking for the culprit...grasshoppers!

[ronbre]

we are on our second year of a pretty serious drought in our area too..I'm managing to get some crops from my gardens though..picked beans, tomatos, peppers, onions, squash..

the grapes are really heavy this year,

but we really need rain..we did get a TS early morning hours with some heavy rain, but then the sun came out and it got in the high 80's really fast which evaporates a lot of the rain