Third year novice gardener from MO. I decided to start a project, the goal of which is to start my own seeds, early, and grow them (or at least SOME of them) to large healthy plants. In other words, much better and stronger plants going into my garden than the seedlings I usually acquire at the local hardware store.
I have plenty of seed starting cells/trays, larger plastic plant containers, including a bunch of 3 gallon pots. I also have a couple of heat mats and one cheap 1' x '1 LED growlight, with another one the same size on the way.
I've never really grown anything indoors before, and I knew LED lights are more recent to come on the scene, so a lot of people don't have much experience with them. But I loaned the one I have to a friend for a while, who was trying to bring a houseplant back to life last month, and the light worked wonders.
I have lots of good veggie seeds to plant, but various tomatoes and peppers are always my priority.
What do you think of this? Is there anything else I really need besides the soil and water? Is it too early to start some? Any advice on the matter at all would be greatly appreciated.
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Allyn
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Well, I'm starting seeds now, but I'm in zone 8b which means I'll be ready to set plants outside in about 6 weeks. (Heck, it was cold for three days and now I'm back to running the air conditioner during the day again.) I don't know when your last frost is, so I can't say if this is too early or not. I guess it depends on how much space you have to hold the plants inside. Seeds in starting cells don't take up much room, but once you start moving them into pots, things can get pretty crowded very fast. I don't use LEDs -- not as a choice, but because I'm already set up with fluorescent grow lights. I have three shelves of grow lights and there's usually something on at least one shelf at any given time. It is usually suggested to start seeds 6 to 8 weeks before your last frost, but more knowledgable people will be along to give their advice, I'm sure.
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applestar
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Other members from MO I think have said they plant out tomatoes around mid- April, so this is a bit early. Depending on your seedling growing area temperatures (ideally mid-50's to 60's), no more than 6-8 weeks ahead, or they will get too big with inadequate lighting system and sufficient room, with no way to move them outside unless you have protected cold frame or greenhouse. You may want to think about building them or planning to.... (I "plan" to but have not accomplished to for past several years 
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Note that smaller starting plants are not necessarily a bad thing as long as they are sturdy and healthy.
Peppers typically take longer to germinate, and grow slower, but need warmer soil temps than tomatoes so plan on planting them out about two weeks later than tomatoes, starting them 10-12 weeks ahead -- for me, this usually equates to starting peppers (and eggplants) about 2 weeks before starting tomatoes.
Peppers and eggplants REALLY need the heat mat (around 80°f+) to germinate. Tomatoes need mid-70's+
If you are trying to head-start them, don't start warmth-loving cucurbits - squash, melons - until 2 to 4 weeks before planting out tomatoes.
This might be good time for you to start early spring cold weather crops like broccoli and onions if you are planning to plant them. Or cold hardy perennial herbs like thyme, oregano, lavender.....
)Note that smaller starting plants are not necessarily a bad thing as long as they are sturdy and healthy.
Peppers typically take longer to germinate, and grow slower, but need warmer soil temps than tomatoes so plan on planting them out about two weeks later than tomatoes, starting them 10-12 weeks ahead -- for me, this usually equates to starting peppers (and eggplants) about 2 weeks before starting tomatoes.
Peppers and eggplants REALLY need the heat mat (around 80°f+) to germinate. Tomatoes need mid-70's+
If you are trying to head-start them, don't start warmth-loving cucurbits - squash, melons - until 2 to 4 weeks before planting out tomatoes.
This might be good time for you to start early spring cold weather crops like broccoli and onions if you are planning to plant them. Or cold hardy perennial herbs like thyme, oregano, lavender.....
Thanks for the responses. Some follow up questions:
When the number of weeks are mentioned, like 6-8 for example, would the seedling be left in the tiny cell is it's started in for the entire 6-8 weeks until it goes into the ground, or is their uppotting involved?
Is there any reason NOT to grow some of my plants bigger and for longer before planting? I do have some space and lighting.
How should I got about hardening these plants off? I have places outdoors where they would be pretty sheltered. I could so some moving around of plants from indoors to outdoors and vice versa to keep them out of cold, extreme weather, etc.
How, specifically do you go about growing onion from seed? I have a bunch and was thinking of starting them since they can withstand some cold. Would putting onion seeds on the heat mats along with my tomatoes and peppers be counter-productive?
Thanks again!
When the number of weeks are mentioned, like 6-8 for example, would the seedling be left in the tiny cell is it's started in for the entire 6-8 weeks until it goes into the ground, or is their uppotting involved?
Is there any reason NOT to grow some of my plants bigger and for longer before planting? I do have some space and lighting.
How should I got about hardening these plants off? I have places outdoors where they would be pretty sheltered. I could so some moving around of plants from indoors to outdoors and vice versa to keep them out of cold, extreme weather, etc.
How, specifically do you go about growing onion from seed? I have a bunch and was thinking of starting them since they can withstand some cold. Would putting onion seeds on the heat mats along with my tomatoes and peppers be counter-productive?
Thanks again!
Plants can be uppotted but they will take more space. Remember before you put the plants out in the garden you should do some prep work first. I like to get a soil test on a new garden just to get a baseline. 4-6 inches of blended compost is always good to add and fertilizer will depend on the results of your soil test. Tomatoes require a trellis or cage for support and it is best to have that ready when you plant the seedlings out.
Tomatoes are popular, but not a good starter plant for a beginner since it is a heavy feeder and requires a bit of maintenance to train them on a trellis. Cages require less pruning than wires. Depending on the length of your growing season, and the problems with disease or pests you may encounter, you may have to select tomatoes and peppers that are best adapted to your conditions. Green onions can be started from seed in a community pot and separated to transplant out later. If you are planning to plant bulbing onions, it is too late to plant seeds but sets might be possible. It still has to be set out at the right time.
Tomatoes are popular, but not a good starter plant for a beginner since it is a heavy feeder and requires a bit of maintenance to train them on a trellis. Cages require less pruning than wires. Depending on the length of your growing season, and the problems with disease or pests you may encounter, you may have to select tomatoes and peppers that are best adapted to your conditions. Green onions can be started from seed in a community pot and separated to transplant out later. If you are planning to plant bulbing onions, it is too late to plant seeds but sets might be possible. It still has to be set out at the right time.
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applestar
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Sorry to disagree, but this is perfect time to start long day or intermediate variety bulbing onions from seed indoors or under protection *if* planting them out in March/early April. Where the freezing temperatures are severe 10°F or below, most onion plants won't survive the winter and can't be sown in fall. However, properly hardened off, they can easily handle sub-freezing temps once they warm up to the 20's. Prep, paper, and mulch the bed first, then make openings and plant for best results. Make sure you have the correct type for your area -- you should use intermediate day varieties in MO.
They won't germinate well on heat mat warm enough for best tomato seeds germination. Onions should be germinated at room temp -- about 60's °F or low 70's. Length of time to germination will take longer than cabbage/mustard family or tomatoes, but most likely less than peppers. Longer germinating seeds are more difficult to maintain correct conditions and protect from fungal issues.
I have to admit, though that I haven't had great success with large bulbing onions from seeds, but that maybe variety -- my location is somewhere between ideal long day and intermediate. Another member Taiji posted his success with growing Candy from seeds last year in another thread. Subject: Can you find the softball?
I have better results planting started plants (dixondale), but I will probably try again from seeds this year, too, and will start soon. I sowed two varieties outside in the fall -- there are only a couple of varieties that are said to be hardy enough -- long day Walla Walla is supposed to be winter hardy to single digits. Intermediate White Wing is supposed to be *like* Candy, which is supposed to be winter hardy but not as hardy as Walla Walla.
They won't germinate well on heat mat warm enough for best tomato seeds germination. Onions should be germinated at room temp -- about 60's °F or low 70's. Length of time to germination will take longer than cabbage/mustard family or tomatoes, but most likely less than peppers. Longer germinating seeds are more difficult to maintain correct conditions and protect from fungal issues.
I have to admit, though that I haven't had great success with large bulbing onions from seeds, but that maybe variety -- my location is somewhere between ideal long day and intermediate. Another member Taiji posted his success with growing Candy from seeds last year in another thread. Subject: Can you find the softball?
I have better results planting started plants (dixondale), but I will probably try again from seeds this year, too, and will start soon. I sowed two varieties outside in the fall -- there are only a couple of varieties that are said to be hardy enough -- long day Walla Walla is supposed to be winter hardy to single digits. Intermediate White Wing is supposed to be *like* Candy, which is supposed to be winter hardy but not as hardy as Walla Walla.
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Taiji
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I had good success with the Candy seeds last year, but realized later I broke some of the Dixondale farms instructions. I started them too late; then by looking back thru my posts I realized I didn't plant them out til maybe June 1st, which is ridiculous. Then, read on the site that they recommend giving a little ammonium sulfate to the plants every 2 or 3 weeks, then stop when onions start to bulb. Didn't do that; instead gave a little ammonium sulfate after they started to bulb when I realized I had not given them anything. Hah! Still had a good result though.
I did start my seeds on a heat mat which worked well, but in the deep dishpan the seeds were probably pretty far up from the heat source. I also posted that I use Miracle Grow mix of some sort to start. No, I used Jiffy mix with a good percentage of perlite. (I may have put in a little sand too) I know lots of people on the forum don't like Jiffy mix, but I have good success with it if mixed with maybe 1/3 to 1/2 perlite. I use it now for all seed starting.
I did start my seeds on a heat mat which worked well, but in the deep dishpan the seeds were probably pretty far up from the heat source. I also posted that I use Miracle Grow mix of some sort to start. No, I used Jiffy mix with a good percentage of perlite. (I may have put in a little sand too) I know lots of people on the forum don't like Jiffy mix, but I have good success with it if mixed with maybe 1/3 to 1/2 perlite. I use it now for all seed starting.
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rainbowgardener
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The seed starting basics thread here: https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/vi ... 48&t=44183 should help answer a lot of your questions.
But no, you can't leave your baby seedlings in the tiny cells. The plants will be tiny and stunted and may never recover from that.
I up pot into 3" pots. For larger plants like tomatoes, depending on how long they stay in the pots, how big they are getting, etc. I may up pot once more. There are little pots for tomatoes that are only about 4" s wide, but 8" deep. Good for growing good root systems, which is most important. Every time you transplant tomato plants, bury them deeper than they were. Tomatoes, unlike most plants, will grow roots all along the buried stem, so you are giving them better root systems.
Warm weather crops will grow faster on the heat mats, but they are really only needed for getting the seeds started. And while your tomato plants will grow faster on the heat, they won't be as sturdy or as well prepared to face the outdoors. So I move everything off the heat mats once they have a couple pair of true leaves. That frees the mats up to start more seeds.
Soil moisture is very tricky! You can't let little seedlings dry out. With such tiny root systems, they will just die. But there is a fungal disease ("damping off") that little seedlings are very prone to in conditions of too much moisture and too little air circulation. It is preventable, but not treatable. Once your seedlings damp off, they are dead. Prevention is keeping air circulating with a little fan, only watering from the bottom (your pots are in trays and you just put a little water in the bottom of the tray and let the soil soak it up), and putting a little pinch of cinnamon powder in all the water you water with (cinnamon is a natural anti-fungal).
Best wishes! keep us updated re progress.
But no, you can't leave your baby seedlings in the tiny cells. The plants will be tiny and stunted and may never recover from that.
I up pot into 3" pots. For larger plants like tomatoes, depending on how long they stay in the pots, how big they are getting, etc. I may up pot once more. There are little pots for tomatoes that are only about 4" s wide, but 8" deep. Good for growing good root systems, which is most important. Every time you transplant tomato plants, bury them deeper than they were. Tomatoes, unlike most plants, will grow roots all along the buried stem, so you are giving them better root systems.
Warm weather crops will grow faster on the heat mats, but they are really only needed for getting the seeds started. And while your tomato plants will grow faster on the heat, they won't be as sturdy or as well prepared to face the outdoors. So I move everything off the heat mats once they have a couple pair of true leaves. That frees the mats up to start more seeds.
Soil moisture is very tricky! You can't let little seedlings dry out. With such tiny root systems, they will just die. But there is a fungal disease ("damping off") that little seedlings are very prone to in conditions of too much moisture and too little air circulation. It is preventable, but not treatable. Once your seedlings damp off, they are dead. Prevention is keeping air circulating with a little fan, only watering from the bottom (your pots are in trays and you just put a little water in the bottom of the tray and let the soil soak it up), and putting a little pinch of cinnamon powder in all the water you water with (cinnamon is a natural anti-fungal).
Best wishes! keep us updated re progress.
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rainbowgardener
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I never top water seedlings. I do sometimes drip a little water on seeds that haven't sprouted yet, especially the ones that need light, so they are just sitting there on top of the soil.
If the top of the cells are drying out, maybe you just aren't giving them enough water. I put maybe a quarter inch of water in the bottom of the tray, just enough for it to be touching the bottom of the soil, so the soil can wick it up. Usually by the next morning , is all gone, so I do it again. If there is still water in the tray the next day, I don't add any. But sometimes pots/trays that are on the heat mat dry out fast, so I add more water late in the afternoon, if it has all disappeared by then.
If the top of the cells are drying out, maybe you just aren't giving them enough water. I put maybe a quarter inch of water in the bottom of the tray, just enough for it to be touching the bottom of the soil, so the soil can wick it up. Usually by the next morning , is all gone, so I do it again. If there is still water in the tray the next day, I don't add any. But sometimes pots/trays that are on the heat mat dry out fast, so I add more water late in the afternoon, if it has all disappeared by then.
I went ahead and got started a little early, if I hadn't mentioned that already. I have some space to spare and my cheap LED lights seem to be doing pretty well so far. Some tomatoes and peppers from this first round of starts will have a long time to grow before they're ready to go outside, so I was thinking of uppotting to 3 and/or1 gallon nursery pots, since those are the sizes I have. Good idea? And in regards to up-potting in general, when do you know is the right time to do it, and is there anything I need to know about the process in general?
Thanks in advance, and for all of you replies so far.
Thanks in advance, and for all of you replies so far.
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rainbowgardener
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No rocket science about when to up-pot. If it has roots coming out the bottom, if it is looking crowded, if the leaves are wider than the pot, if it seems to be slowing down growing.
But bigger is not better. One gallon pots are not particularly good for little seedlings. That much soil stays wet a long time, which isn't what you want.
But bigger is not better. One gallon pots are not particularly good for little seedlings. That much soil stays wet a long time, which isn't what you want.
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applestar
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Tomatoes are capable of growing up to 4x the height of the container (Or more). First of all you want to decide if you have that kind of space before the weather is ready for them to be planted outside in the ground, because if you coddle them too much, they WILL try to grow maximum available as quickly as possible. If you are not supplying sufficient light and adequate isometric exercise (physical movement via wind or other means) and you are using too nutrient-rich potting mix, the growth will be weak and it will be really difficult to transplant them into the ground or large enough container for the remainder of the season.
Personally, my tomato seedlings are grown in a wobbly balance between adequate container size for roots vs. keeping them in lower temps to slow growths and for sturdy seedlings vs. supplying just enough nutrients to keep them from being deficient.
With peppers, the seedlings need heated root zone for any kind of healthy root growth, and they are very prone to overwatering. Overpotting would be the worst thing you can do. I'm just as happy they DON'T grow too rapidly and CAN be kept in relatively smaller containers until the weather warms up. Remember, too, that they need another couple of weeks before weather warms enough to plant out compared to tomatoes.
Personally, my tomato seedlings are grown in a wobbly balance between adequate container size for roots vs. keeping them in lower temps to slow growths and for sturdy seedlings vs. supplying just enough nutrients to keep them from being deficient.
With peppers, the seedlings need heated root zone for any kind of healthy root growth, and they are very prone to overwatering. Overpotting would be the worst thing you can do. I'm just as happy they DON'T grow too rapidly and CAN be kept in relatively smaller containers until the weather warms up. Remember, too, that they need another couple of weeks before weather warms enough to plant out compared to tomatoes.
Thanks for the replies.
[quote="applestar"
Personally, my tomato seedlings are grown in a wobbly balance between adequate container size for roots vs. keeping them in lower temps to slow growths and for sturdy seedlings vs. supplying just enough nutrients to keep them from being deficient.
[/quote]
Applestar, how do you go about balancing nutrients, temps, etc? Particularly, what kind of temps for the tomatoes?
[quote="applestar"
Personally, my tomato seedlings are grown in a wobbly balance between adequate container size for roots vs. keeping them in lower temps to slow growths and for sturdy seedlings vs. supplying just enough nutrients to keep them from being deficient.
[/quote]
Applestar, how do you go about balancing nutrients, temps, etc? Particularly, what kind of temps for the tomatoes?
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Taiji
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These are my onion seedlings for 2017. Started them around Jan. 25, they were up by Feb 1. Same as I did last year, 99 cent dishpan, holes drilled in bottom and sides. Filled to about 4 inches high with soil less mix. I used a heat mat, but only for about a week. Hoping for the same good luck as last year!
Top 1-2 inches of soil is a mix of Jiffy seed starting mix and perlite. The rest is a homemade soil less mix of composted manure, mushroom compost, some evergreen leaf mold from under my Arizona cypress trees, and some coarse grit composed of crushed/decomposed granite.
Top 1-2 inches of soil is a mix of Jiffy seed starting mix and perlite. The rest is a homemade soil less mix of composted manure, mushroom compost, some evergreen leaf mold from under my Arizona cypress trees, and some coarse grit composed of crushed/decomposed granite.
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Taiji
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Forgot to mention at this stage, I have the onions under shop lights for I think about 14 or 16 hrs. per day. (lights are as close as possible to the onions)
Separated last year's seed from this year's hearing that onions seeds aren't viable for very long. Wanted to see what happened. Both seem to be doing equally well.
Separated last year's seed from this year's hearing that onions seeds aren't viable for very long. Wanted to see what happened. Both seem to be doing equally well.
I don't like to let things like tomatoes stay in the pots too long. Perennials like chives can but annuals don't like to have their growth checked. Even if you could keep uppotting the tomatoes, I don't know if you will have enough light to keep them going unless you have a lot of natural light.
When I keep my eggplant and tomatoes in the small containers too long, they don't recover that well. Even the ones that do grow are somewhat stunted and don't last as long as the ones that are transplanted out before they start flowering.
When I keep my eggplant and tomatoes in the small containers too long, they don't recover that well. Even the ones that do grow are somewhat stunted and don't last as long as the ones that are transplanted out before they start flowering.
Thanks again to everyone who responded. I may post pics of my very amateurish closet at a later date. It's my first time starting my own seedlings, so I'm winging it and learning as I go, and read.
So far, so good. My first round of tomato seedlings (7 of them, I believe) were up-potted about 24 hours ago. If they do well in their new containers, and my other seeds and seedling keep going the way they are, I will be fairly pleased.
So far, so good. My first round of tomato seedlings (7 of them, I believe) were up-potted about 24 hours ago. If they do well in their new containers, and my other seeds and seedling keep going the way they are, I will be fairly pleased.
Any advice for beets, cabbage or sugar snap peas? The beets and cabbage came free with some other seed orders, and I thought the sugar snap peas might be nice to snack on. I've done a little googling on them. But there are so many things out there. I've never grown any of these at all, from seed or otherwise. So I'm completely clueless.
Should any of these just be directly sown, rather than started indoors and transplanted? What kind of outdoor temperatures can seedlings handle? Any tips at all would be very appreciated.
Should any of these just be directly sown, rather than started indoors and transplanted? What kind of outdoor temperatures can seedlings handle? Any tips at all would be very appreciated.
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Taiji
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I have some cabbage started right now in my little grow cells, so I usually start them indoors. I think they can be started outdoors though. The other things you mentioned I start outdoors. I've heard that beets don't transplant well, but I wouldn't know for sure; I always start them outdoors. This year I built a little planter box from some scrap lumber and one of the things I put at each end is sugar snap peas. They are up to about 2 feet now. No blooms yet, but I'll see. The box is in a closed in south facing porch in the window ledge.
For corn, I personally always start it outdoors, but having said that, I also start a little 6 pack of it indoors at the same time to fill in outside if some don't germinate. Otherwise, you sit there for 2 weeks wondering if those empty spaces are ever gonna sprout, and but the time you get it figured out new ones that you plant are far behind!
For corn, I personally always start it outdoors, but having said that, I also start a little 6 pack of it indoors at the same time to fill in outside if some don't germinate. Otherwise, you sit there for 2 weeks wondering if those empty spaces are ever gonna sprout, and but the time you get it figured out new ones that you plant are far behind!
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rainbowgardener
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Agreed. Beets like carrots and most root crops do not like to be transplanted. You are disturbing the root, which is in this case your crop.
Cabbage and broccoli I always used to start indoors, when I was in zone 6. Now that I am in zone 7 with such mild winters, I am planting most everything in the ground (except tomatoes and peppers and basil). Peas and corn I always did just plant in the ground.
Cabbage and broccoli I always used to start indoors, when I was in zone 6. Now that I am in zone 7 with such mild winters, I am planting most everything in the ground (except tomatoes and peppers and basil). Peas and corn I always did just plant in the ground.
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applestar
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I pre-germinate and start corn inside. After several years experimenting, I have settled on a method I like.
For me primary advantage is to foil the chipmunks that in the past have dug up every single corn I carefully sowed, and to plant seedlings that are at similar growth stage so they will develop at the same rate in my tiny patches that I will later hand pollinate. There's that 2 weeks to see them sprout in the garden, too -- tedious and not really for large field planting, but definite instant gratification for small patch-growing.
Here's a thread with some descriptions. I think I included links to orevious years' efforts in there somewhere
Subject: 2016 -- starting seeds and cuttings for the new season
For me primary advantage is to foil the chipmunks that in the past have dug up every single corn I carefully sowed, and to plant seedlings that are at similar growth stage so they will develop at the same rate in my tiny patches that I will later hand pollinate. There's that 2 weeks to see them sprout in the garden, too -- tedious and not really for large field planting, but definite instant gratification for small patch-growing.
Here's a thread with some descriptions. I think I included links to orevious years' efforts in there somewhere
Subject: 2016 -- starting seeds and cuttings for the new seasonapplestar wrote:Planted the first batch of corn seedlings today. I decided it will be Ok since we are having overcast days and then rainy for a few days and it is going under the insect cover for the time being, which will provide some shelter from the sun and the elements.
You can see how long the roots get.
