seedlings,already giving trouble

[tdump]

What did I do wrong this time? Last year I over watered,.
This year,I got stuff up quickly,and it is kicking the bucket!
Lettuce came up,and a couple lean over when I spray water on the soil,but the basil in the round pot is just dieing.
It is possible I aint watering enough,But I need to know so I can correct my problem.
Sterile new Jiffy mix starting medium, some seed last years, some this years.
Started on a heat mat on the 31 of january. I spray water on the soil 2 times a day but don't make it soggy.
I pulled the plants off the heat mat this morning before photo graphs . All plastic stuff was cleaned with bleach and warm water. The plant flat is on my ironing board over the base board electric heat and you can feel the warmth when the heat is on. Room temp is 72.

[rainbowgardener]

Some combination of things. Spraying water on the soil surface is not a good way to water. The surface can be wet, even too wet, and yet the area where the roots are going down into is still dry. And yes your soil looks very dry. Watering seedlings is tricky. They are sensitive to over watering (as you discovered), but they have very little root systems yet, so can't be allowed to dry out.

Best way to water seeds and seedlings is from the bottom. Put your cells/pots, whatever the seedlings are in, in a tray and put some water in the bottom of the tray. Put just enough water in so it touches the bottoms of the pots, so the soil can wick up what it needs.

Your seedlings look very spindly. That probably indicates not nearly enough light. You didn't say anything about lighting. Do you have them under lights? Ambient light is not enough.

check out the seed starting basics thread here: https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/vi ... 48&t=44183

[applestar]

I really don't like jiffy mix seed starting mix -- they are powder fine and dry as dust. Super hydrophobic so they don't wet properly -- if you fill a container with dry mix, you can try all different ways to moisten by soaking or pouring, they just all float away, especially if using cold water.

Fortunately for me, though, when I started out with budding interest in horticulture many moons ago as a teenager, I grabbed a random set of paperback, black and white illustrations and photos indoor gardening books, and the author favored jiffy mix. So First thing I learned was to make a small opening in the bag and pour boiled and still hot (but not too hot that you would burn yourself) water into the bag (he had a specific amount/recipe -- x cups per y qt. bag), then "shake and bake" -- close tightly, shake vigorously, then let sit overnight before using.

I agree with rainbowgardener about the seedlings not getting enough light. Also, don't treat lettuce and basil seeds and seedlings the same. Lettuce only needs room temperature to germinate, then 50's-60's to grow, but basil would prefer mid70's and up. If you are growing other seeds, too, keep basil with peppers (and tomatoes, too, but basil and peppers need about the same warm temp while tomatoes can be cooler) and lettuce with cabbage family (broccoli, etc.) or onions, parsley, and perennial herbs like thyme.

[ccar2000]

tdump,
I have been using the pellets with mesh, they are about an inch and a half or so in diameter and less than a half inch thick. Mine came with a Burpee order for a mini greenhouse. Not sure if they are made by Jiffy as well. Anyways I believe they are coconut coir, I set them in a little tub, like an old tupperware or frozen meal tray and add water. The soak up and are about two inches tall. I am having good success with my seed sprouting. They do not get over saturated and keep just the right moisture level. They don't mold up like other products I have tried. I always have trouble with digging the seedlings out of the used nursery trays and the soil falling apart tearing and exposing the tender roots. These stay together with a biodegradable mesh, are freestanding and you plant the whole thing.

Also, I heard that if you add a little dish soap to your water as a surficant it helps to re wet that bagged potting soil. Haven't tried it but the lady at the greenhouse supply shop seems pretty knowledgeable and recommended it.

[imafan26]

I gave up on jiffy pots and pellets. they fall apart and they are too wet. I don't use jiffy mix, besides being too fine, it is too expensive. I use ordinary pots and miracle grow potting soil. It contains some slow release fertilizer. Jiffy pots and pellets are too wet and fall apart and the pots especially dry out really badly. Wet the mix before you put it in the pots so that it is friable but not soggy. Plant your seeds and water from the top gently to get the air spaces out. After that bottom water as Rainbow said, but make sure it does not sit in water. Empty out any water that remains after about 10 minutes. Fine tune your watering so you don't have any water in the tray after 10 minutes and the soil is evenly moist on top. I do agree you need more light, but I also think your top watering knocked down the seedlings. You have to use a watering can with a gentle spray like a French watering can.

[Vanisle_BC]

I'd second the suggestions for thoroughly pre-moistening the soil before it goes into the pots or cells. Then your (gentle) watering, top or bottom, will spread easily through the soil mass.

[tdump]

Well I was hoping the led grow lights I ordered off ebay would be here by now but for 1.85 free shipping each, I guess I need to get the incandescent grow bulb I used last year and hang it over them for the time being. I put the plants in something to hold the loose water and gave them a good drink. They are at the window and I thought were getting plenty of light. I appreciate the help and will put the bulb over them!

[tdump]

Boy that was good timing for the sake of my little seedlings! I gave them a good drink of water and put them under the Bulb and they are happy, seems the only casualty's are 1 basil and 2 lettuce!
I have only 1 incandescent grow light but I didn't cram it right down on top of them to keep down the heat from it. All the little seedlings are being drawn to it. I have rotated the containers twice already to help keep them from growing wapsided.

[rainbowgardener]

When your LED's come, it will be much better. You are right, incandescents will fry your plants if they are too close. But at a safe distance, they aren't providing much light intensity, which is why your seedlings are stretching towards them so much.

[tdump]

I just read some of the above listing link and relized air circulation may be a issue. I keep the door closed to my bedroom where my plants are and sometime I leave it open for a hour or 2 but there is no air "blowing" around so to speak. There is circulation in the fact the warm air from the baseboard heater is coming up past the plants when it comes on. When I had curtains instead of blinds they would move gently in the breeze.
I have some small fans used in cooling electronics like computers. If I need more air circulation,would 1 of those work?

[ButterflyLady29]

Yes, computer cooling fans work.

[ccar2000]

Yes, computer cooling fans work.

Just need to be sure you have the right voltage. Not all muffin fans are the same. I suggest you pull the air over your seedlings rather than push it. That way you do not get a direct blast of air.

[tdump]

here is the current temporary setup.Looking forward to getting those led's in the mail. The incandescent bulb is to hot to get close. But it is helping the plants go straight up.. Btw the way, when you need a temporary table for 2 flats, a ironing board works great! Me being a single man it don't get used much anyhow!

[rainbowgardener]

what ever is in the front soda bottle thingy is way too crowded and is going to need to get transplanted out as soon as they have leaves... Unless you really have a use for a zillion whatever-they-are's, you might want to just thin some now, just snip them off with nail scissors near ground level.

[tdump]

Leeks,gotta get them separated some. dads truck broke down,been in the shop all day working on it, so maby Tuesday after the doctor visit. I put some seed in there and spilled the whole thing. So I couldn't find the seed and put more in there. They all came up,some all the way from the bottom which is about 5 inches! I have put a very small amount of liquid fertilizer in there so they can live.

[tdump]

Well so far so good, aint lost but the 1's I said earlier.
I outgrew my ironing boar table and had to get the old folding table out of my camper so I could put 2 more flats in here. today I planted 4 of each of all my peppers and tomatoes I want to grow. I forgot Better boy's for my dad so I got some seed off ebay and have them on the way. Along with Red cherry tomatoes. I have 9 different peppers planted in the fogged over flat.
I have white ,purple,yellow,green bell peppers, banana, a couple ghost pepers,and of course ceyanne and ornamental
I
And I think a total of 9 tomato types so far to. Sun sugar,another yellow cherry tomato,Ambrosia I think, Black cherry, marglobe, rutgers, Rowdy Reds, white Beefsteak, cant think of the others> I will be planting 4 red beef steaks as well as my lady friend wants to stuff those using a recipe she found.
I want some fun and different stuff this year!.
The 2 green self watering bottle things have a Rutger each in them. I have added soil twice now. As they got over 3 inches without soil.
The sweet taters are finally starting to get roots on them. That was tiny non useable 1's from my tiny crop last year.
I have my soil heater mat under the flat with the peppers in it.

[Vanisle_BC]

tdump, did you say your leeks sprouted up through five inches of soil? That sounds remarkable. I wonder what effect it would have on the distance to the first leaf-division.

[Peter1142]

IMHO your original seedlings died of drying out exacerbated by spindliness due to insufficient lighting.

I would give up on those brassica seedlings, sow new ones when you get a proper grow light, they are impossible to start indoors without one.

[Vanisle_BC]

.... when you get a proper grow light.....

Not to detract from what Peter said, note that ordinary household fluorescents will do the job. They don't even have to be labelled as grow lights but they do have to be down close to the plants - 2" is not too close.

[tdump]

Yep the leeks came thru at least 4 if not 5 inchs of the starting mix. I can see them thru the side of the plastic bottle.
Brasscias ? Um, I didn't know I had any cabbage? Help me on that.

[Vanisle_BC]

Brasscias ? Um, I didn't know I had any cabbage? Help me on that.

Sorry, I don't understand what that's about.

[Peter1142]

Sorry, I guess those are basil seedlings -- they look very similar, especially on my phone. You can just direct sow basil. Idk, those seedlings in the first post really look like brassicas to me (the live ones), they have that two lobed cotyledon. What are they? But the more recent pic is hard to tell from far away little leggy sprouts.

The leek seedlings grow in two directions. If you click on the link to my blog I started there is a cool onion germination video. I find it very hard to believe they would germinate through 4-5" of potting soil... but anything is possible.

[tdump]

Brasscias ? Um, I didn't know I had any cabbage? Help me on that.

Sorry, I don't understand what that's about.

I googled that word and it came up cabbage. Sorry!

yes those are basil in the round pots. I wanted to get it started early.
Here is the best I can do for a pic of the Leeks.
I watched these things grow right here beside the computer each day and can say ,they came up thru all that.
I tried to separate them but they are just to fine and tiny right now.
When I bought leeks in 2014 they were Bonnie plants and it was a "bunch" in a tiny round pot and it took me several hours to separate and handle each 1. Next time I plant these things I am going to figure out a way to put 2 or 3 seeds in a pot! To heck with all this playing with hairs!

[tdump]

I planted 4 of each of my peppers and tomatoes Saturday about 2 pm. Today at 12 I had 2 white beefsteaks and 2 black cherry's already popped up! Then at 4, I had a couple Roma's and 2 Rutgers and a Ambrosia popping up! Amazing how quick they came up!

[tdump]

Well I got 1 of the 2 bulbs I ordered off ebay that came from a chinese vendor. Red and blue led's. Not much heat but not a very large area covered. I think if I make a bracket to put it straight down over a flat it will light a flat ok. But not more area than that.
Should be getting another 1 soon as I got 2 at the same time.
I found a flouresent light I can use also,gota get it hung. I got more seedlings now than light!

[applestar]

Try to create reflective surfaces to maximize lighting. Put up walls (tape to wall, shelves, poster board, cardboard, etc) to surround the seedling area or hang like curtains.

I recycle/re-use inside of chip bags that are white or shiny mylar. I also line the reflector of shoplights if they are not painted white or mirror metal using mylar emergency blanket cut to fit.

[tdump]

Good idea on the reflective stuff.
I think I have a better setup. I had a extra 4 foot shop light fixture and a stack of bulbs. I was shocked when I found 1 of the bulbs was for plants and aquarium use! So of course it and a regular cool white are in the fixture. I threw together the wood thing to hang it from and I hope this helps as I am getting alot of stuff coming up and I want it to be successful.
Thanks for the help
The photo makes it look kinda dim but it is bright under those 2 4 foot bulbs.

[Vanisle_BC]

tdump, are you remembering to get the lights down within 2 - 3 inches of the plants? I know it looks bright to the eye but to the plants it is "pretty dim."

[tdump]

It's about 6 because any closer it does not seem to "cover" the whole flat.The little seedlings are pointing towards the 2 4 foot bulbs so apparently they are happier than before.

edit,lowered it 2 chain links closer,Maby that will work better.
The little led bulb I got would work ok maby for a couple potted plants but it's spread is just not big at all.

[NJ Bob]

Looks to me like you've got 8 feet of plants and 4 feet of lighting. You really need to get the lights within a few inches of your plants. You can alternate your flats under the lights 12 hours in/12 hours out but if you can it'd be easier to just get another 4 foot fixture and a couple of bulbs.

[Vanisle_BC]

tdump, I'm not sure about details of your setup but here's mine: Plant trays are on a 4' wide table (used to be a home-made darkroom sink ). Over it, hanging on a rope & pulley arrangement, are 2 double-tube fluorescent fixtures fastened together side by side with wooden cross-battens. So the whole lighting thing is about 4x4 feet. For attending to the plants I can raise the lights high and secure the rope. For adjusting their distance beneath the lowered lights I just prop the trays on bits of wood or whatever is handy; or I can use the rope to tie the lights at various heights. The whole thing is quite hokey and very low-tech. I'll try to do some pictures tomorrow, and post them here.

Right now I have seedlings of leek, onion & parsley under the lights but the past couple of days I've had them out for a few hours in the daylight (not sun), starting to harden them off. Temperature has been around 7-8 degrees (C. !!)

[tdump]

well I put the onion seedlings in the cold frame along with the black seed lettuce. Then I put the cilantra and parsley stuff in a flat under a led bulb I got from ebay. a 2 watt 1 with red and blue led's . I aint so sure that thing is worth the manure it would take to bury it in the yard!
Anyhow, here is the way it looks now. The sweet taters, they had started putting out, but I put them under the light this morning, and Wow, they have jumped just during today.

[Vanisle_BC]

I promised to post some pictures of my lighting setup for raising seedlings indoors. I'm a day late but here they are. I said earlier that I used two double-tube units battened together but that was originally; now I have a single 4-tube fixture.

(They uploaded in the reverse of the order I intended)

The white thing on top is an electronic timer. I used to use mechanical ones but they have plastic gears that soon wear out. The electronic one's more expensive and a bit of a puzzle to program but has been working well for a few years.

[tdump]

thanks for posting your setup. Gives me ideas for when I have a little better place figured out to set this stuff up as in the bedroom is a bit impractical although it is already 72 degrees and not heating a area just for plants.

, I may still be a inch or 2 to high with my lights but the maters seem happier as they are putting on more leaves in the middle today, tiny but barely visible.I think they call them True leaves?. they are going to make it I think!

[tdump]

Some of my maters are making their True leaves! I think you folks have helped me enough I will have some valid plants this year. I grew a few last year but they did not do well. So this year is already looking better.

I have 10 different tomatoes planted now and I think 8 peppers so far and 2 more types are ordered.
Amazing what just a short week or 2 can do.

[tdump]

Just thought I would update, seems the plants are happy!

[rainbowgardener]

Looking good!!!

[applestar]

Yep looks good!

At this point, what will help is to cut apart the blocks of cells (not into individual single cells but blocks or they will fall over) and group them so that the shorter seedlings can be placed on risers/higher and closer to the lights. See how the little ones are twice or even 3x as far from the lights as the taller ones?

I call this "Seedling Jenga"

[Peter1142]

Looking good congrats.

The ones in the pots on the left are leggy and struggling for light, looks like they would be better to go on the end there where you have water bottles.

[tdump]

Oh those bottles are selfwatering pots with plants in them. I can set that 1 flat up on a couple brick, that should help! Thanks for the hints.
Those leggy basil are just annoying, I have done everything but put them in a satellite and send them to the sun and they just aint doing well.