New indoor future Bonsai

[Polistes]

Well I am going to experiment with a crab apple tree indoors yes indoors LOL. As of now it needs to grow several more inches before I can begin the training. Its in a small pot as well even though you cant see it. I designed my setup so the pots can be buried so it looks like its naturally growing. Also noticed that within hours of being placed under the bulbs the color of its leaves improved greatly from when the shots were taken. I am also aware it needs a dormancy period which I will provide when the time comes. Anyways I want opinions on my current subject right now So here are the pics.

Top Down:
[img]https://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh195/Polistes/100_4575.jpg[/img]

Side shot:
[img]https://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh195/Polistes/100_4565.jpg[/img]

Whole setup shot:
[img]https://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh195/Polistes/100_4578.jpg[/img]

Lighting is provided by two compact florescent reptisun 10.0 bulbs which supposedly copy the noonday sunlight spectrum. Do you think the tree will be OK under this? I found it in a shady area that gets no sun because the parent tree blocks it all anyways. Here are the specs on the bulb:

10% UVB Output
30% UVA Output

These bulbs also have issues due to their high output that they can cause eye problems in reptiles under their coverage and penetrates a cage up to 20 inches...

Anyways your input is welcome.

[JTred]

Normally a problem with indoor growing of "outdoor" trees is the dryness of indoor air. Fortunately I think the terrarium should cover that. It's going to need a dormancy, however, do you think you will be able to provide that? I'm curious to see if it will work out.

-Jack

[Polistes]

As I stated that tree is actually potted and other than being buried in the terrarium is completely separate from it. When fall comes around, its only a matter of lifting the pot out, placing the tree outdoors to sync with the season then place in the garage when its dormant, move back outdoors in the spring, then once budding move back indoors. Thats the plan anyway.

[TomM]

Air circulation - not only for the outdoor plant but for the pot as well? I know little or nothing about terrarium planting but have a curious mind. Seems to me that it will not dry out properly. In a normal situation bonsai require a wet-dry cycle and fresh air (movement) like they would get outdoors.

[Gnome]

Polistes,

Forgive me for saying so but I am not at all sure that your plan for the Crab is sound.

When fall comes around, its only a matter of lifting the pot out, placing the tree outdoors to sync with the season then place in the garage when its dormant, move back outdoors in the spring, then once budding move back indoors.

Dormancy is more of a process than an event. Outside, deciduous trees, begin the gradual process of dormancy after the summer solstice on July 21st. The shortening of days, not temperature, is the primary trigger for dormancy. This is not to say that it must be that gradual, Brent Walston has an article about this [url=https://www.evergreengardenworks.com/dormancy.htm]here.[/url] I don't take this approach feeling that it is so much work to duplicate the outdoors that I am better off leaving everything that prefers to outside, outside. It's a lot less hassle to let nature do the hard work.

Consider what you are proposing. This tree will spend late summer through mid spring outside, you then will bring it inside right when it needs to outside the most. Summer is when it will be doing the bulk of it's growing so you will be taking it inside at the absolute worst possible moment.

I strongly suggest you reconsider keeping this material inside if you have an area outside available to you. In fact I keep nothing inside during the summer, only moving tender plants inside when the weather becomes inhospitable.

Norm

[Polistes]

Nice article, this is what I am planning to do, I like tinkering with stuff like this

[Gnome]

Polistes,

So its not able to grow indoors at all?

I don't believe that I made such a blanket statement.

Or we simply lack the lighting equipiment to do so?

Lighting is not the only issue. Dormancy is more difficult, for one. Then there is the fact that this particular piece of material is in need of the better part of a decade of free growth before it will show any real potential as bonsai. By confining it to a small pot, in a less than ideal circumstance, you will be greatly reducing it's chances of ever reaching that potential.

I don't mean to sound confrontational, if it cant be done then it cant be done, but it seems no one has really tried.

Not at all, I did not take it that way. The thing is though, that it has been tried, and yes it can be done, but you are going against the nature of this species. A greater effort will be required to duplicate what can be accomplished outside with much less effort. There are better choices for indoor culture, your Schefflera being one of them.

Temperate trees are better suited to being kept outside. Remember the old commercial, "It's not nice to fool mother nature" Then again perhaps I am dating myself with that reference.

To me it seems silly to grow it outdoors all year and only bring it in for a day or two at most, it might as well be a wild plant then. Thats my take on it anyways.

Well, that's the nature of bonsai, at least traditionally, temperate trees are most easily accommodated outside. No one is telling you not to grow indoors, just that there are better choices.

Norm

[Polistes]

Ah ha I see my edit did not fool you

You are certainly giving me a lot to ponder and thats a good thing I came to learn, but at the same time I want to push the boundaries. While it may be against the trees nature to be indoors, I think that if it gets its dormancy and bright lights it should work out.

I also may not really understand the actual literal term bonsai,(Which may actually be causing some misinterpretation on our parts) to me it equals shrinking down a tree, and replicating its natural form.(Or more precisely prevent a tree from reaching maximum size and replicating its natural form) Thats what I want it to do, look natural but only be six inches tall, if that. I think its called mame style or something. Perhaps I would be better off calling it a miniature tree alike in all forms to its parent except in size. In Short I may not be aiming for a bonsai as people would know it.

My goal with this tree is to have it be healthy and happy, while at the same time not being outdoors, relying on me to provide the lights and dormancy. things which I feel I can do. Eventually I want it to be a miniature replica of its parent.

I think I might actually remember that commercial your referencing, I was born in the early 80s and may have saw it as a kid.

Again I don't want to come off as a jerk or seem like I am going to ignore your input. But I do certainly want to try this out.

[Gnome]

Polistes,

Ah ha I see my edit did not fool you :p

My response was already in progress before the edit took hold.

You are certainly giving me a lot to ponder and thats a good thing I came to learn,

As are we all, we learn from each other here.

I think that if it gets its dormancy and bright lights it should work out.

While that is certainly true, any tree can be kept indoors if you are committed to the endeavor, my point was that it is much more difficult to fight nature than work with it.

I also may not really understand the actual literal term bonsai, to me it equals shrinking down a tree, and replicating its natural form.

That's not far off. One thing to consider is that bonsai is an artistic endeavor and as such is a representation of a full grown tree. Bonsai is an illusion!

Thats what I want it to do, look natural but only be six inches tall, if that. I think its called mame style or something.

Mame is only one of many size classifications of bonsai ranging from a few inches to four feet high which are known as 'imperial' sized trees.

One thing that I alluded to earlier is that even mame sized trees are often grown out then cut back. This technique, which is common to all sizes, helps to promote movement and taper, two characteristics that further the illusion of age. Seedlings inherently lack these features. Bonsai are almost always grown out then cut back, repeatedly. By keeping such a juvenile plant in a redistricted space you limit it's growth and therefore it's future. Remember that root growth and top growth are concurrent, you can't have one without the other. Limited root growth equates to limited top growth which, in turn, means your seedling will always look immature.

https://www.evergreengardenworks.com/trunks.htm

Norm

P.S. These are the discussions that I enjoy the most. I don't have experience with all species (nobody can) and trees in distress are difficult to diagnose at a distance but if I can help a new grower avoid some of the mistakes I have made over the years, that is significant.

[Polistes]

I am just grateful I am actually getting replies in my threads LOL

Thanks for all the info and articles that trunk one was very good I will be reading that one again and again. I am starting to see what your talking about having the tree look immature even being several years old. Hmmm Anyways I have my work cut out for me, and I am not talking about dormancy and lights, the trunk growing is one of the things I have constantly wondered about, none of my books(yes I found them actually) go into detail about trunk growth.

I am not really planning on cutting it till it get to the height I want to be at anyways, but I can still see the issue with root growth, My goal is six to 8 inches tall with this tree maybe taller depending on how it looks, keep in mind I have to make it fit in that 20 gallon setup... and yet look full and natural their too. Well anyways again thanks for the info I need it and appreciate it.

Heck I may even move it outdoors but at the same time what do I do when it gets to the height I want, I am sure it will reach that height with in a few months outdoors, before the dormancy period sets in... So much to ponder.

[img]https://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh195/Polistes/100_4630.jpg[/img]

Well decided to move it into my five gallon pot outdoors where its gets gets partial sun in the evening. The stake is only a marker so it does not get plucked by someone thinking its a weed LOL. It lost a leaf during the move, I was trying to get something off it and it snapped right off, oops.

[Sage Hermit]

{ ' - ' so coooooooool! Why didn't I think of this before?

[Polistes]

Well either way its all moot, it got weeded when I was gone... anyways I put my umbrella tree in its place...