How close can I plant my squash?

[garden5]

OK, here I go again, crowding the garden . This time, the plants in question are bush summer squash and vining winter squash.

I love my squash and want to get as many plants in a space that I have as I can. Here is what I was thinking for the summer squash (bush): Mounds, about 1 ft. high (maybe 1 1/2 ft.) spaced about 1 1/2 ft. apart on center. I'll grow about 3 plants to a mound.

As far as the vining butternuts go, I've no ideas. Maybe 1 ft. mounds 2 ft. apart with 2 plants per mound? Will it really be detrimental if the vines crawl over each other?

I know that these distances seem way closer than the seed packets recommend, but do you think that it will still work? I'm looking for a big harvest this year (I hope I find it )

Good luck with all your gardens!

Garden 5

[Kisal]

JMO, mind you, but I don't think it's so much a matter of the vines growing over each other, except for perhaps a little too much shading of the ones underneath. I think it's more a matter of what will be going on underground, with the roots. They have to have space to spread out, and enough area from which to gather sufficient nutrients and moisture to support the above ground parts of the plants. If the plants have to compete with each other for nutrients and moisture, none of them will produce as well as they might otherwise.

[garden5]

JMO, mind you, but I don't think it's so much a matter of the vines growing over each other, except for perhaps a little too much shading of the ones underneath. I think it's more a matter of what will be going on underground, with the roots. They have to have space to spread out, and enough area from which to gather sufficient nutrients and moisture to support the above ground parts of the plants. If the plants have to compete with each other for nutrients and moisture, none of them will produce as well as they might otherwise.

That's a really good point. I kind of worried about that, but I think that by growing them on mounds of compost will help give them both nutrients and root space.

Thanks for the advice.

[rainbowgardener]

Also the issue with vines crawling over each other would be diseases. My squash all got powdery mildew last year (the ones that weren't killed by the squash vine borer! ). (I was able to treat it and keep them going longer, but still.) Having leaves touching and shading each other, holding moisture and cutting down on air circulation would tend to promote that and other diseases.

If you want to grow them closer together, I'd think about trellising them, or at least some of them. That would give them more room to spread out and better air circulation.

[garden5]

Also the issue with vines crawling over each other would be diseases. My squash all got powdery mildew last year (the ones that weren't killed by the squash vine borer! ). (I was able to treat it and keep them going longer, but still.) Having leaves touching and shading each other, holding moisture and cutting down on air circulation would tend to promote that and other diseases.

If you want to grow them closer together, I'd think about trellising them, or at least some of them. That would give them more room to spread out and better air circulation.

That's a good idea about the trellising. I've thought about it myself, but will look into it a little more seriously. Of course, that would only work for the vines, not the bush plants. I would probably have to design some type of support system for the fruits so they don't rip the vines off.

I completely forgot about the disease aspect from crowding. That's probably how my tomatoes got the septoria last year (but, that's another story).

Thanks for the suggestions.

[jal_ut]

You don't even need to make mounds. Plant on level ground if you wish.

Put 5 seeds in a circle about a foot diameter. Then move over 5 feet and repeat. Do not worry, when they get going they will cover every square inch of the plot with their leaves, and give you a great harvest. That is, plus or minus the pests.

[gixxerific]

I'm with Jal and Rainbow Trellis them and no mounds.

It's not "Sqaush" but I grew cucumbers last year on flat ground with a trellis and I spent more time trimming them back than growing, not really. What I'm getting at is they COULD NOT be stopped. They took over the garden and that is when I trellised them about mid season and cut back probably half only for them to come back with a vengeance. I had more cukes that I could deal with out of only 4 plants.

I did have them planted at normal distances but I eventually took out a few plants they were growing too much
I said I planted 4 but I think they all had double plants in them so it was more like 8 hence the massive cutback.

[garden5]

Thanks, all, for the advice. It's interesting that some of you are leaning towards not using the mounds. Now, I'm probably missing something, but what can it hurt having the mounds? I can see that they are not necessary, but they must be helpful.

I was going to make mine with compost, this way, I'm improving the soil that the seedlings will be grown in (since once they are plants, their roots will reach deep anyway) and I'm also amending the garden's soil with some good compost. Also, the compost-rich mounds will help make sure all the plants have access to nutrition since they will probably be competing for it if I plant them close.

There also seems to be some conflict on the spacing. Jal says that the groups of plants should be about five feet apart, while Chris says that I'm good with my foot-and-a-half and that I may even go closer .

Anyone else care to elaborate on this?

Thanks and happy growing.

[BrianSkilton]

My squash all got powdery mildew last year (the ones that weren't killed by the squash vine borer!

I hear ya rainbow, all 28 of my plants got killed by the squash vine borer, and some also got powdery mildew as well. I am going to try some preventive measures this year.

[petalfuzz]

I'm going to do winter squash 4 feet apart (one vine per "mound") and summer squash will be 2 feet apart (also one vine per mound). Planting closer and more will not give you more harvest, it will only stunt the plants you do have. When you plant more seeds per mound, you are supposed to thin them down to 1-2 plants per mound to avoid overcrowding.

For example, I grew zucchini: 3 plants about 8" apart. I got 10-12 fruits the whole season. I probably could have gotten more squash had I just planted one vine only in the same space.

[garden5]

I'm going to do winter squash 4 feet apart (one vine per "mound") and summer squash will be 2 feet apart (also one vine per mound). Planting closer and more will not give you more harvest, it will only stunt the plants you do have. When you plant more seeds per mound, you are supposed to thin them down to 1-2 plants per mound to avoid overcrowding.

For example, I grew zucchini: 3 plants about 8" apart. I got 10-12 fruits the whole season. I probably could have gotten more squash had I just planted one vine only in the same space.

Hmm....interesting. You seem to have the "less is more" belief. I kind of wondered about the whole loss of production per plant thing myself. But from what I've experienced, you get more fruit from the extra plants than you lose from the regular number of plants. However, this may not hold true with the squash.

Thanks for your insights.

[jal_ut]

I reckon there are as many ways to grow squash as there are those who have tried it. The thing to bear in mind is that these things get big. The bush types will have a vine around 4 feet long. If you have 3 or 4 plants in a hill, you will get a squash planting that may cover an 8 foot circle.

The vining types like butternut or hubard, will have a vine up to 12 feet long easily. If you have 4 of these in a hill the hill will cover up to 400 square feet of space by the time it gets done growing. Maybe more.
The wisdom of those who have made studies of squash roots say that the underground root system will go as far as the top growth, and up to 6 feet deep.

My suggestion to plant hills at 5 feet apart actually crowds these monsters. Believe me, any plant will do better if it has space and is not in direct competition for sunlight and soil.

I find that 5 seeds planted in a circle one foot in diameter works well. Usually only 3 or 4 germinate, and they will grow in different directions like the spokes of a wheel. Here is a pic:

[img]https://donce.lofthouse.com/jamaica/crookneck.jpg[/img]

There are two hills in the picture. The one is centered with the bucket, the other is on the left of the picture. These two hills were planted 6 feet apart, and as you can see, the vines are touching. This is yellow crookneck squash and this harvest scene was repeated every week all summer. To get an idea how tall these are, that corn is 7 feet tall. Hope this helps.

[garden5]

[quote="jal_ut"]I reckon there are as many ways to grow squash as there are those who have tried it. The thing to bear in mind is that these things get big. The bush types will have a vine around 4 feet long. If you have 3 or 4 plants in a hill, you will get a squash planting that may cover an 8 foot circle.

The vining types like butternut or hubard, will have a vine up to 12 feet long easily. If you have 4 of these in a hill the hill will cover up to 400 square feet of space by the time it gets done growing. Maybe more.
The wisdom of those who have made studies of squash roots say that the underground root system will go as far as the top growth, and up to 6 feet deep.

My suggestion to plant hills at 5 feet apart actually crowds these monsters. Believe me, any plant will do better if it has space and is not in direct competition for sunlight and soil.

I find that 5 seeds planted in a circle one foot in diameter works well. Usually only 3 or 4 germinate, and they will grow in different directions like the spokes of a wheel. Here is a pic:

[img]https://donce.lofthouse.com/jamaica/crookneck.jpg[/img]

I think you hit the bull's eye, Jal. Everyone has their own style. I like the "seed wheel" style you have described and your pictured put things into perspective well. Since there are about five types of bush I want to try, I've decided on this plan:

Five mounds, about three plants to a mound, spaced about 2 ft. apart in a staggard formation kind of like this:





Now, I know that this may seem close, but the vines of the butterbush are reported to be only about 20 in. and the zucchini I know for a fact to be only about 2ft. across. I'm unsure about the other varieties (early scallop and gold nugget), but I'm pretty sure the one doesn't get that large, either. The row itself wil have about three feet of space on each side. I'm going to go with the mounds since I want to get some compost into the garden, anyway.

Thanks, everyone. for giving me some guidance and good points to keep in mind.

[tedln]

I planted three varieties of yellow summer squash this morning. In the past, squash has simply been a bed filler around my tomato cages in a 4' X 8' bed.

This year I built a 30' bed for my tomatoes in order to rotate them. I then rebuilt the soil in the old tomato beds and two of them are now dedicated squash beds with onions around the edges. It isn't practical to build mounds in the beds, so I simply plant the squash in straight lines on both sides of the center lines of the beds. I plant them about 6" apart. After they sprout and start growing, I will remove the weakest looking plants with the intention of having a plant about every 18". Since they will no longer be shaded by the tall tomato cages, they should be much more productive than last year.

I have also constructed hoops over the beds and purchased white tulle material to provide a tall cover to protect from Vine borers and hail. I hope it helps to prevent aphids. I didn't have aphids or powdery mildew until the very end of the season last year, but when they came, they came in full force and wiped my squash vines out. Since it was near the end of the season and the vines had produced well, I simply wasn't paying enough attention to the squash.

Ted

[Gary350]

After I till the garden I make rows 20 ft long. Mark the row with a string so I can plant seeds in a straight line. I poke a hole in the soil with my finger then I drop 1 squash seed in each hole. I plant seeds 6 ft apart. After about 4 weeks I plant more squash in between the plants I already have. The first plants start producing squash and after several weeks they get root rot and die. Thats about the time the other squash plants start making squash. The dead plants on in the compost and I plant new seeds where the old plants were. This keeps the squash from coming all at once I can't eat a dozen squash every day. It is nice to have 1 or 2 squash every other day all summer.

[Urban_Garden]

I've heard doing the French Intensive Method allows you to plant more closely but it is also a lot of back breaking work. =/

[Ozark Lady]

I have no luck with cucurbit family, bugs eat them up big time.

I like the tulle tunnel idea of Ted's. But, I don't know if it would work for me, When I remove the tunnel to pollinate the cucurbits by hand or let the bees in there, I would also let the other bugs in there.

On a totally non-fruiting crop, where I wouldn't have to worry about pollination I can see it working. But, Ted, what will you do about pollinating them, and not letting bugs get in?

I also like the idea of a second crop in the wings, but what keeps the bugs and disease from attacking the tender young seedlings?

I don't know that it will work, but, I had cabbages near my leafy plants, and they were aphid encrusted. But, there were no aphids on the tomatoes, tobacco, or peppers. I will use cabbage as my 'catch crop' again this year. And I might well, try the tulle cage for raising some cabbage for my kitchen, and not for the bugs!

[tedln]

I've heard doing the French Intensive Method allows you to plant more closely but it is also a lot of back breaking work. =/

Please explain the french intensive method.

I plant about 6" apart simply to insure I will have germination in a given space. I then thin out the weaker plants hopefully achieving an 18" spacing. If the plants start growing into huge plants and need more space, I remove the lower producing plants or plants showing signs of disease. If the plants have plenty of space at 18", I may still remove the lower producing plants or plants showing early signs of disease and replace them with new seed for successive planting. If plants grow really large, but stop producing, I will remove and replace them.

Ted

[tedln]

Ozark Lady,

In my experience, the pollinators, honey bees and ground bees seem to come out early in the morning. I've never noticed vine borer moths in my garden before the sun gets really hot. I simply hand pollinate before the borer moths start their day.

I designed the hoops where the cloth hanging down is attached and rolled up on a light weight board and they are held in place with two bricks. I simply remove the bricks, lay the boards over the top, do the harvesting, and pollinating. Drop the board back into position, and replace the bricks. I then go to the other side and do the same thing. No mess, no fuss.

It isn't a perfect method, and I have never tried it. I really thought about using spinosad to prevent borer damage, but if not used correctly; it can also kill the honey bees. I looked around and didn't see any at local garden supply stores and didn't want to order it. I simply decided to try this method because it is potentially less harmful. Another reason for the hoop tunnels is the fact that they can also be used for other purposes in the off season simply by replacing the netting with clear, heavy duty plastic. They are also easily removed and replaced. I think I mentioned in an earlier post that they are constructed by tying everything together with that cheap, green, plastic coated; gardening wire you purchase in little rolls.

I suppose if you tried to use them outside of raised beds, you would probably have to drive some stakes into the ground to prevent the hoops from blowing away.

I'm also using the tulle netting which has larger holes in it than regular tulle. I'm not sure the netting will stop aphids, but I will know by the end of this season. I would have preferred to use the regular tulle, but it only comes in 54" widths. I made my hoops pretty tall to easily accommodate
my large size 6'3", 240#. The netting comes in 72" widths which worked great. I did have to attach a wood strip to the top of the hoops and drape and staple the tulle to the strip for each side. Each bed required ten yards of tulle cut into two five yard pieces.

You could cut the ten foot long, 1/2" pvc into five foot lengths and make smaller hoops, pushing them into the ground over more narrow rows and a single width of regular tulle or tulle netting would fit over it.

You could also construct rectangular wooden frames of any desired width, construct the hoops; attaching the hoops to the lightweight frame. You then could simply move the hoop tunnel around as you please or flip it onto a side in order to work on the plants under it.

You could also purchase the ten foot lengths of pipe, a good supply of 1/2" pvc tees and four 1/2 pvc 90 degree elbows and cut and glue the pipe pieces to a pvc frame. You might want to make the frame out of 3/4" pvc with 3/4" to 1/2" tee reducers for the hoops.

Lots of possibilities.

Ted

[Ozark Lady]

Ted, that makes sense! I have the raised beds, and the tunnels already.

Problem is: my bugs may not be the same ones that you have. I suppose the only way to find out is to try it. If it even lowers the population of pests by 50% that is that many less chewing on my plants. To the best of my memory the critters that ate my squash looked similar to stink bugs, not moths. A lot like potato bugs, might have been potato bugs, as that year I did grow alot of potatoes. I just checked my memory with hubby, he also remembers them as small gray stinkbug looking things.

And I thought, gee that tulle makes sense. But, then I got to thinking of pollination, and when I looked up squash, well, that is when I had the questions.

I do grow alot of leafy plants so I definitely may copy your idea on some of these, I had considered vinyl screen wire, for the same application.

[cynthia_h]

I've heard doing the French Intensive Method allows you to plant more closely but it is also a lot of back breaking work. =/

Please explain the french intensive method.

Ted

The French Intensive school of gardening has developed other names in recent decades: BioGrow Intensive, among them. Close spacing and deep preparation of the growing bed are the hallmarks of this method. The soil only needs the deep preparation ONCE. Not once a year or once every three years. ONCE. PERIOD.

And you don't have to bring the whole garden into production at one time. (Well, many of us must: if 96 square feet is what's available, why not?)

The French Intensive method originated in...well...France, where the availability of land is much smaller and gardeners must make every square centimeter of land earn its keep. The Wiki article at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biointensive is a start, but an Internet search on "French Intensive gardening" returned several good (and a few "out there") articles.

Cynthia H.
Sunset Zone 17, USDA Zone 9

[tedln]

Thanks Cynthia,

It's nice to know what I've been doing for years has a name.

Ted