tedln
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Germination of "Difficult" seeds

Duh_Vinci

I brought up your old post regarding the subject line. In the post, I reported I had experienced difficulty germinating Cuostralee tomato seeds and I thought it may be due to the quality of the seed I received from a reputable seed supplier. I used the USDA bleach method and improved the germination dramatically but still below 50%. Even after germination, the plants were not enthusiastic about growing. They simply seem reluctant to grow when compared to other varieties grown at the same time under the same conditions.

I have ordered some Custrolee seed from a different vendor to see if my problem may be vendor specific. The original seed looked old, covered with a fuzzy, moldy looking outer shell. The bleach treatment did remove the fuzzy stuff and made the seed look more normal, but the shell never became translucent. I am waiting for my new seed order to arrive in order to compare it's appearance to the original seed.

In your original post, you stated that you do not pretreat all of your tomato seed, just the seed that needs it. What method do you use to determine which seed needs pretreatment and which doesn't need it.

I germinated some of the seed we got as free seed from Wild Boar Farms. The seed was beautiful. It's color was good and it didn't have an outer coating which would have indicated to me it needed pretreatment. After almost a month, I have two tiny plants representing possibly a 25% germination rate. I have ordered some of the seed from Wild Boar Farms and will pretreat some and not pretreat some to see if the germination rate stays the same or improves.

While my wife and I were riding our ATV in Arkansas with friends a couple of weeks ago, I visited with a friend who is a plant biology graduate from Oklahoma State many years ago. He is also a master gardener. I was discussing the bleaching seed treatment method and he said that many years ago in college they were taught to treat many agricultural crop seeds with bleach to improve germination. I guess the USDA has used the method for years, and finally decided to publish it.

Ted

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Try Epsom Salts in your first watering after planting your seeds. The magnesium in it boosts germination by dissolving the germination inhibitor that coats seeds.

I chuck in a small handful in my 10L watering can.

TZ -OH6
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I don't understand what you mean by outer coating. Tomato seeds are naturally fuzzy. The fuzz helps pull water from the soil for germination. Seed that is smooth either has been tampered with or were in an unhealthy /abnormal environment during growth or seed saving.


After planting and seeing poor germination it sometimes helps to let the pot dry out before rewatering. This sometimes wakes up some of the seeds.


If you have poor germination tell the vender, they will want to know, and they will generally replace the seed. I have had bad luck with at least one "Reputable vender" with germination success, but I only wanted a couple of plants, and then I saved seed so it didn't matter.

tedln
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TZ -OH6 wrote:I don't understand what you mean by outer coating. Tomato seeds are naturally fuzzy. The fuzz helps pull water from the soil for germination. Seed that is smooth either has been tampered with or were in an unhealthy /abnormal environment during growth or seed saving.


After planting and seeing poor germination it sometimes helps to let the pot dry out before rewatering. This sometimes wakes up some of the seeds.


If you have poor germination tell the vender, they will want to know, and they will generally replace the seed. I have had bad luck with at least one "Reputable vender" with germination success, but I only wanted a couple of plants, and then I saved seed so it didn't matter.
I don't know what the correct construction of the shell of a tomato seed is. I only know what the Cuostralee seed looked like compared to the seed of other varieties. The first attempt with the Cuostrolee resulted in 3 germinations out 12 seed planted. After the bleach treatment, I got 3 germinations out of 6 seed planted. The cuostrolee was planted to germinate in the exact same conditions as six other varieties which had no problem germinating. The bleaching process removed the fuzzy coating from the seed and left it clean. Some seed Duh_Vinci processed actually became translucent and you could see the inside of the seed.

I'm not really concerned about the vendor I got the seed from. I don't believe they intentionally sold infertile seed. I ordered about $50.00 worth of various seed from them and received all of it in a timely manner with the exception of the Cuostrolee seed. They sent me a note saying they had to back order the Cuostrolee seed. It took over two months to receive it. Of all the seed ordered, the Cuostrolee was the only seed I had trouble germinating. I am curious if they sent some old seed or something. I don't really care. I have ordered some from a different vendor to find out how it looks compared to the first shipment and see if it will germinate any better. Not having grown Cuostrolee before, I may discover that poor germination is a trait of the variety.

For me, it is just a small part of a continual learning process.

Ted

TZ -OH6
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I've not had any trouble with fresh Cuostralee seed. I did have an odd thing happen where the first planting (of a few seeds) didn't come up but the second planting (of many seeds) from the same pack quickly came up 100%. But that happened with a couple of varieties that year. I guess the moon was not right and the white virgin goat I sacrificed was possibly not a virgin.

tedln
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I love it! If you even suspected the white virgin goat wasn't truly a virgin, you should have sent it to me. I understand cabrito (goat) goes very well with a green salad with Cuostrolee tomato in it. Oh wait! make that Brandywine tomato, I can't get my Cuostolee to grow. :D

Ted

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Ted - I really don't have any special approach to which seedlings to treat just by looking at at them. I did use this treatment on the seeds are either older (more than 2-3 years of age) or if I only had 2-3 seeds (as it was with some varieties this year).

Some seeds that you mentioned with no fuzz - I have some of those too, but these are commercial vendors. It appears that some kind of treatment is being used to strip the fuzz off... Don't know why... Sweet Cluster for example is one of the seeds with no fuzz, seeds are from Tomatogrowers. Germination was fine with no pre-treatment, and it is the tallest, healthiest plant from the batch of the seeds planted at the same time.

TZ - lol, oh yeah, that goat - watch out for the neighbor's goat who may have wondered into you territory!

On the serious note though, moon phase and seed planting, interesting! I too had some seeds had very poor germination the first time, but 100% just 2 weeks later... Maybe worth to do some reading on it.

Regards,
D

tedln
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I received some SWEET CARNEROS PINK from the webmaster in the "Free Rare Breed Seed" giveaway. They came from Brad Gates at Wild Boar Farms. I first attempted to germinate six seed. Two germinated about three weeks ago. They only grew about 1 1/2" tall and finally gave up the ghost and died. I had six seed left, so I did the bleach pretreatment with them two days ago and planted them in a seed starting tray. I had attempted to grow the first seed in the same manner as my other seed which has been very successful with the exception of the Cuostrolee seed. I'm just interested in finding out how much difference the pretreatment makes. In both cases where I had difficulty germinating seed, the resulting plants also have had difficulty growing. I also ordered some of the seed from Brad Gates to give it another try if necessary.

Yep, I'm still looking for that white virgin goat to give it a try if the bleach treatment doesn't work well. Jmoore from the forum came by the house today to pick up some extra Brandywine plants I germinated. When he drove into the yard, he said some folks were outside our gate trying to round up some goats that had escaped. We visited for a while and he went home with the Brandywines. A couple of hours later, my wife started yelling at me that some goats were in the woods at the front of our property. I drove down to look and couldn't find them. I sure wanted one of those white virgin goats but I guess I'll just have to be content with the bleach pre-treatment.

Ted :roll:
Last edited by tedln on Tue Apr 27, 2010 10:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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:lol: Good luck :lol:

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Ted,

Any updates on the germination?
tedln wrote:... The bleach treatment did remove the fuzzy stuff and made the seed look more normal, but the shell never became translucent....
I've recently tried to germinate rare to me seed (Vjerino Paradaziz Sjieme), received them from Dr. Male, she did advise that germination maybe difficult since the seeds are from 2004 with no freezer storage.

First round was no go, same with the second... These just bleached, and seeded, translucent again after 30 min. just not as much as the other seeds I've tried before. Maybe the variety has something to do with it?


[img]https://drphotography.smugmug.com/Garden/2010-Garden/2010vpseedbleached/851622486_r8uPk-L.jpg[/img]

I really want these to grow, reeeeeeeally. Keeping the fingers crossed!

Regards,
D

tedln
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Duh_Vinci,

Your photos are interesting. They seem as if the enbryonic tomatos are enclosed in shrink wrapped plastic. They look viable, but since they are not translucent; you can't tell if they are empty cells or cells still full of life.

So far five of six of mine have germinated in about five days. I am expecting the sixth seed to germinate also. In another post, I detailed a light box I made to hopefully make them a little more sturdy than my last Sweet Carneros Pink seedlings. See Below.

https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24639

They did germinate in about two weeks shorter time than my previous attempt. I do believe the bleach treatment made the difference in germination percentage and germination time.

My Cuostralee seed and the Carneros Pink seed seem to have a difficult time shedding the seed hull after germination. Before planting the seed, the hull seems tough. After germination assisted by the bleach treatment, the remaining hull is very dry and soft and disintegrates into powder when pinched. I wonder if the soft texture is a result of the bleach treatment.

Good Luck!

Ted
Last edited by tedln on Thu Apr 29, 2010 4:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.

tedln
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The Vjerino Paradaziz Sjieme tomato must be new to the world also. Not a single hit on Google. Beefsteak? Cherry? Paste?

Ted

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https://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/Vjerino_Paradajiz_Sjeme

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Duh_Vinci
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Ted - glad the germination has improved!

As for Vjerino Paradaziz Sjieme - I have a soft spot for heart shaped tomatoes, and this one, being non-commercial definitely sprung up my curiosity.

Regards,
D

tedln
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After TZ-OH6 gave me the correct spelling of the name (Vjerino Paradajiz Sjeme), and the link to Tatianias; I was able to look it up. It looks like a very good tomato. Heart shaped beef steak, Red, and up to 2 lbs. It has also been near the top in some taste tests ranking up their with Cherokee Purple, Black Krim, and Brandywine Sudduth.

After your post on the tomato stating the fact that you got seed from Dr. Male which had been stored for a number of years unrefrigerated, I wanted to see if anyone has made an effort to store some seed properly in order to protect it's genetics for the future. I found that it is a fairly well known variety within the small community of true tomato aficionados. Dr. Male had registered it in Seed Savers. Let me know how well your latest effort germinates and grows. It might me something I would like to try next year. If you are able to grow it, will you save seed from it? One site said the plant grows to seven feet tall and seven feet wide with good production. Sounds like a winner to me.

Ted

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Ted,

I obviously can't spell worth of junk - eyes playing tricks on me, next time I think I just copy the name from my spreadsheet :lol:

Very appealing fruit, isn't it? Seems like so many great qualities are working for it, so I'm very hopeful to have at least one to sprout. Heck, I'll even make a special place for it in the garden with more than enough nutrient rich soil!

If I succeed, by all means, you are welcome to have the seeds for next year garden. If these last ones germinate, I may as well start believing in the moon phases too!

Now - can I borrow someone's goat please???

Regards,
D

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Vjerino Paradajiz Sjeme is alive!!!

Treated with bleach, washed thoroughly, set in the unfiltered well water for 15min, then planted into a jiffy pellets and into that little mini green house (12 pellet size) - planted on 04/2910...

Yesterday - one germinated!!!

[img]https://drphotography.smugmug.com/Garden/2010-Garden/2010VjerinoParadajizSjeme0503/857194373_3z672-L.jpg[/img]

And now under the grow light (joined AAA Sweet Solano and Coeur de Boeuf Blanc)

[img]https://drphotography.smugmug.com/Garden/2010-Garden/2010VjerinoParadajizSjeme0504/857194375_cSnvt-L.jpg[/img]

Going to baby this one, it has to live!!! And with God's will, there will be seeds to share next year!!!

So after multiple trials with different, and proven to be difficult seeds to germinate (for what ever reason) - I strongly believe, that USDA bleaching method indeed aids in germination (rate and time).

Regards,
D

tedln
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Duh_Vinci,

Congratulations, When can I expect the cigar for the new arrival?

I totally believe in the bleach pre-treatment. I got five out of six of the Sweet Carneros Pink to germinate and they are doing great. They already have their first true leaves even though they are still small. The variety still seems a little fragile to me. I feel if I do one thing wrong, they will die on me. I am keeping my fingers crossed.

Ted

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LOL I sent that cigar back with the goat that I borrowed, hasn't arrived yet?

Good to hear that you got the Carneros going, sounds promising, would definitely try it next year with few more varieties from Brad.

I have another little surprise - 2nd seed from Vjerino Paradajiz Sjeme came up this morning, that is 2 out of 3. It's not as strong looking as the first one, but still, a pleasant surprise. I have 6 spaces reserved for more tomatoes, so Coeur de Boeuf Blanc, Vjerino Paradajiz Sjeme, AAA Sweet Solano will take up 3 spaces in about a month, then will plant seeds for 3 more varieties to keep the season going with fresh plants...

Regards,
D

tedln
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Yep, Me to. I up potted the Sweet Carnero Pink plants yesterday. I didn't intend to. I planned on going from germination containers to planting in the soil. Unfortunately, they were growing to fast and became very leggy. I didn't have enough room in the containers to add soil around the stems to prevent damping off. 36 hours later, they are doing great and I plan on putting them in the ground next week.

I will start germinating some Black From Tula Dono gave me and some JD's Special C Tex I got from another garderner, next week. I will use the bleach pre-treatment on both. I only got five of the Special C seeds and don't want to waste them. I may germinate Cherokee Purple and Black Krim later, but if I decide I simply don't have room for them, they may have to wait for next year. Good Luck. I will look at the front gate for that goat and check the mailbox again for the cigar.

Ted



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