Victrinia Ridgeway
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bonsaiboy... May I respectfully correct that the Chinese started down the path hundreds of years before the Japanese... and they interperted what they found going on there in their own way when examples were brought back from China. To make it sound like it was a simultaneous pursuit is not in truth the case. ;)

In fact, if you look at images of Japanese bonsai at the turn of the 20th century it has more of a penjing look than the stylized modern iterations which developed post WWII. :)

V

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froggy
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I guess I'm one of the blue-eyed beginners Victrina mentioned :P
To me a bonsai would be:

- a tree or shrub planted in a container (or in the ground being prepared for it - but then you could argue it's not finished)
- which has also been intentionally shaped by either wiring or strategical pruning...

Only problem I find with this definition, suddenly topiaries are included too... ooops.
Maybe that's where the difference between art and craft lies, bonsai vs landscaping....

Adding that it should look like a miniature of a much larger (and probably older) specimen, or represent one of the traditional styles, would exclude the topiaries, but also a bunch of stylistic/fun trees, into whose creation went just as much thought and effort...
Which, to me appears wrong. - Art should evolve. A true artist should know the basics though (as in: the traditional styles), before going off and creating something new or abstract...

Comparing bonsai to art, I am at the stick-figure stage, so ways to go still, and my plants so far are just trees in pots... When they've lived for a good 3 years I may reevaluate....

Victrinia Ridgeway
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Blue-eyed beginners are a treasure... :)

As with all things which are "beautiful" it's entirely in the eyes of the beholder. I've seen some helmets of such perfect green foliage that they may well fall into the catagory of topiary... but to the person who did it, they see bonsai. One shouldn't worry so much about when a bonsai is a bonsai as one does the pleasure they have in it. Only when you enter into the sometimes shark infested waters of competition do you have to worry about observing forms and standards. Even then the forms and standards are determined by the folks handing out the awards... and not all competitions are created equal. But would we want them to be?

Trying to put it into a neat little package of understanding is somewhat futile... there is no universal definition that properly accepts and excludes every style or aesthetic.

A bonsai is a bonsai when it meets the expectations of the practitioner and/or the peers with whom they wish to have acceptance from.

If you love stylized trees... then seeing a naturalistic bonsai is going to be a great turn off for you, and vice versa. What you love in your trees today may well appall you in future years as you develop your own sense and style in the art.

I still have the first tree I ever styled... mostly to remind me how much I have changed. My teacher thinks it's rediculous to keep a tree which has no long term potential for greatness... I keep it purely for sentimental reasons. Not to mention, in my stubborness, I am sure I will make something out of it... some day. :lol:

Kindest regards,

Victrinia
Last edited by Victrinia Ridgeway on Wed Jan 19, 2011 12:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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froggy
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Victrinia Ridgeway wrote:I still have the first tree I ever styled... mostly to remind me much I have changed. My teacher thinks it's rediculous to keep a tree which has no long term potential for greatness... I keep it purely for sentimental reasons. Not to mention, in my stubborness, I am sure I will make something out of it... some day. :lol:
LOL, if mine survives, I know I'll keep it forever too :p

JTred
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Victrinia Ridgeway wrote:Blue-eyed beginners are a treasure... :)

One shouldn't worry so much about when a bonsai is a bonsai as one does the pleasure they have in it. Only when you enter into the sometimes shark infested waters of competition do you have to worry about observing forms and standards.
This is probably one of the most important things to have come out of this discussion. I think it applies to many of the things that we explore in life. For the vast majority of us, bonsai (or skiing, dancing, drawing, running, playing music) is purely for our own enjoyment. I would like to add to your statement not to worry by saying that the reason you should not worry is because you understand you own level of development and accept you limitations, while still acknowledging that you will develop. I guess what I'm saying is that you shouldn't ignore the rules of bonsai (or any pleasurable activity) or critique of others, but rather accept your current knowledge (or lack thereof) and strive to build upon what you know.

Victrinia Ridgeway
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One should be aware of the standards acknowledged in bonasi... but I think calling them rules is a limitation to the artistic side of the pursuit. Bonsai isn't paint by numbers... but as with breeds of dog there are standards which are noted as being excellent, but unlike breeds - those standards vary by aesthetic style and can be very different.

I've seen trees which take my breath away and break just about every "rule" in the book... and trees which comply with every standard bore me to tears. The truth is often in the middle, and subject to the abilities of the practitioner as well as the potential of the material.

Bonsai is often a visceral experiance between the subject and the viewer which can be assisted by the standards, but not brought on by them.

V

tomc
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There is a feedback I get from bonsai. The more perfectly I supply my trees with what they need for growth and styling, the more perfectly they feed me with serenity.

When I come to an impasse, I go back to the books. a while ago Solomon said; "There's nothing new under the sun".

When it comes to bonsai just about every temperate climate woody plant somebody has tried in a tray. with more success than I would've ever guessed.

Are some just twigs inna pot? Yea some are. An' I'll repect that when that is the intended visual statement being tried to make.

A striking visual was made some years ago by taking a blasted and seared ceramic roof tile from Nagasaki and planing a dead pine tree on that tile and surrounding it with new seedling five needle pines in some soil.

If ever there was an ephemeral 'bonsai' this well could've been it, because it would have to be rebuilt just about every year.

I believe it to be art, and bonsai all the same. It sure poked me in the eye.

TomM
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Glad you brought this thread around again. Nice to take a second look. We've got some really nice 'bonsai nuts' here, and they inspire with their shared insights. All ages, levels of experience, and geographical regions are represented. One common thread.



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